It was malaise. I was under the impression that the Amarr were giving up systems so that their alts could cash in on the T5 warzone control Minmatar achieved on Sunday. (As of yesterday, the Amarr had six systems under their control, out of over 65 systems.)
(tl;dr I propose that Minmatar give up all systems east of Dal, excepting Amamake. Reset faction warfare of our own accord, get back to good fights.)
Not really the case. The Amarr side is simply disinterested, and many are packing up, moving north, where the battle lines are more evenly drawn; where there's something for both sides to fight over.
So, to those crowing that we can do it without Goon help, perhaps we're still lingering under the effects of what they did. If the Amarr are so disinterested that they aren't fighting back, then what sort of victory are we crowing over? Not too mention that the Minmatar have always had a numerical advantage over the Amarr, the Goon exploits only made a crappy situation for the Amarr worse.
(Of course, the Amarr now have Fweddit, an organization that is 600 strong. But then Fweddit aren't really keen on faction warfare mechanics, so they don't bother with things like plexing, offensive or defensive. But then, why would they bother when Amarr are perpetually stuck at T1 warzone control, there's no motivation to do the grindy work. Fweddit won't stick around if the situation continues to deteriorate. Do we want to see them head to the Caldari? Few Minmatar I've talked too aren't happy that Fweddit took up the Amarr cause. They breathed essential life into a battle that had been on the wane.)
The more people the Amarr bleed, the better it is for the Minmatar with respect to LP earned, but CCP isn't going to let that money train last forever, which then damages everybody in faction warfare, because anything CCP changes to rectify the situation isn't only going to affect Minmatar.
Hell, without Amarr, good fights aren't going to happen. And faction warfare is about the good fights at its core. Sitting around, only doing missions for LP, with nobody to fight . . . might as well be highsec carebears.
The way it sits now, the Amarr need systems. They can grab a system here and there, but considering they have so few, it's easy enough for the Minmatar to grab them back, they only have a couple systems to focus on reclaiming.
With the lack in interest developing on the Amarr side, there's no way that the few that are interested in claiming systems, going after warzone control, can make any headway. Eventually, they too will be driven elsewhere.
Take a look at the following faction warfare map, I'm going to use east/west based on how it's drawn:
I propose pulling all Minmatar assets back to Dal. Give the Amarr one (maybe two) weeks to retake all systems east of Dal (except Amamake). There can still be good fights throughout the week, simply no plexing in the systems we're giving up. We don't snark and snipe at them either "Oh, it took us being charitable to get you back on your feet blah blah blah." Fuck that. This is as much for our good as it is there's. CCP is to blame for the situation we're in, a system that favours a feedback loop of a more powerful side becoming increasingly more powerful, a less powerful side becoming increasingly less powerful. The Goons are as much to blame for causing much of the Amarrian malaise. We're to blame for rubbing all of this, which was out of Amarr control, in their face for the last couple months. Which all leads to where we are now: a dude wants to do better by himself, get out of the rut he's in, but can't quite get the leg up he needs, not without a little help from friends.
After battle continues, if the Amarr then lose all their systems again, well, tough. But I'm willing to bet with some systems under their belts, the occasional shot at T4 control, that the Amarr side will be revitalized, and southern faction warfare will be as most of us imagined it to be.
All it would take to make this happen would be the cooperation of a few of the larger Minmatar FW alliances: Iron Oxide, Late Night Alliance, Defiant Legacy, and a few others. Get the word out, and get people in line, on pain of getting blowed up real good.
Or maybe you can all fly over to Gallente space and fight there?
ReplyDeleteThere's already a healthy chunk of Minmatar pilots doing just that.
DeleteIts not going to happen. Even though FW is the most theme-park style pvp in Eve it's still pvp in Eve. Why should the winner back down, regardless of how they are winning? A better solution is to simply switch sides as individuals to create numerical balance. In fact this what should happen if the TLF is home to elite pvp pilots. It stands to reason they would try to distance themselves from the Isk farmers. Right?
ReplyDeleteThe Amarr do not feel that giving the Minmatar any more ISK in the way of systems to take is in our best interests, nor is taking systems we cannot control to provide Plexing space to the Minmatar. We have shown that even on a bare bones staff we can take you from teir 5 to 4 in a few hours, and due to your back-end systems being pretty unoccupied other than Amarr speed tanking plexers de-levelling your systems this doesn't look like changing any time soon.
ReplyDeleteAlso, by taking this course of action it may bring to CCP's attention the unbalanced mechanics and ISK fountains that fund this war from your side. Any change would only impact you alone, as the Amarr pretty much has to use outside income to fund their operations. If it does not, we at least deprive the sources of income to the Minmatar that don't require mission running capable ships. If we keep the Minmatars Tier down that will keep income from missions low, and all the while getting all the fights us Amarr desire.
Just get the big ones you named to make a deployment for gallente space. you can fight caldaries their while amarr have time to plex against the smaller Minmatar FW groups.
ReplyDeleteShake up the Gal/Cal warzone and enjoy new enemies for a few weeks.
Resetting FW would have been terrible. It is totally against the spirit of Eve to reset the work and actions of players to make it 'fair'. How patronising to the Amarr as well. A large proportion of the Minmatar would have quit if there was a reset. To see all their work undone by deus ex machina would have been a crushing blow and pretty much an unprecedented act that would have harmed Eve's reputation as a sandbox ruled by the actions of the players.
ReplyDeleteThe reason the Minmatar control so many systems is that we organised and had a strategy in place over the whole of the militia and worked like dogs to take as many systems as we could to obtain this position. The Amarr didn't bother/couldn't achieve unity anywhere close to the Minmatar - especially WBR, who despite their competence refused to work with the rest of the Amarr or plex. That and our access to accurate contestation levels won it for us.
I understand the risk of losing our enemy and GFs but there is nothing to stop us interacting with the other low-sec dwellers or heading over for day trips to Gal-Cal space. With these income levels more significant logistical tools become affordable.
But really? You add consequences to a system and one side is going to win and then you expect them to hand it back plus move huge amounts of assets? It isn't going happen and it shouldn't happen.
This is about the dumbest thing I've heard all day. And that's saying a lot since I just finished reading Jester's post about the CSM.
ReplyDeleteKeep gaming the system, take all the systems, keep posting the best route to make the most isk using the power of Math and how AWESOME the minmatar are at everything.
DeleteKeep on keepin' on! As any rock/hip hop/sports star in history has taught us, a life of excess can and will last for all eternity
And here was me about to come and try setting up a market place. Combining your comments with Gamerchick's, it seems like the Amarr either need some sort of saviour to come in, a more experienced Fweddit, or perhaps for a number of the Amarr to head to the Caldari / Gallente front. The real danger is that we end up with two completely one-sided conflicts.
ReplyDeleteMaybe you should all get lots of LP, convert it to ISK and then hire PL to come and "reset" the zone for you by helping the Amarr.
Its all propaganda m8. Join militia to see how terrible minnie militia can be and usually is.
DeleteI fully approve!
ReplyDeleteI am not with the Amarrian militia, but those who are, are essentially waiting for an excuse to pack stuff up and leave for good?
Why stay when there is no real point fighting WITH mates who are not motivated in the first place. They bitch at each other and the enemy ('Matar) is not even on the field.
Currently the Amarr side of FW is a waste of time (and ISK) I am told! :'-((
CCP can fix it by implementing quotas for each faction that keep the faction populations closer in ratio. Everyone wants to be on the winning side. Same problem has happened in other faction oriented PVP in other MMOs. Might not be popular by the little red hen crowd, but as people move to the winning sides, it'll end up basically two overpowered factions, as mentioned previously. CCP won't stand for that, so will likely come up with something even more broken than what they've got now. If FW players want to wait for CCP to screw up FW again, all they need to do is let things trundle along the way they Are now.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/wda7t/faction_warfare_resuscitating_the_amarr/c5che03
ReplyDeleteThe solutions proposed above get to the same end conclusion without requiring patronization or any more intentional system loss for personal end game and ensures the continuation of good fights without needed to jump bridge or travel 25 jumps. So if one you nice kind people would kindly point Hands in that general direction, it'd be great.
Delete-TIA
You guys seem to be forgetting that when Goons did what they did, it set Minnie all the way to level 5 everywhere they owned, making LP costs plumit for minnie, making minnie pilots rich and amarr sat there where it was.
ReplyDeleteGoons did this, it wasnt numbers or skill, it was the goons.
I assume this is trolling, I hope it's trolling.
DeleteThat's somewhat narrow focused and relatively disingenuous.
The goons involvement had an impact, for sure, both in the positives for minmatar in morale and income, morale losses for the amarr but that wasn't the only factor.
The good starting position when inferno hit helped a lot too. Blitzkrieging through Amarr space before the changes ensured they were well on their way to total domination. Whether this was done because of foresight, good tactics or what, it helped.
Another issue was the rat ewar allowing minmatar to solo plex systems to contested while the amarr required fleets to do offensive plexes, which required already undervalued LP to be split amongst multiple parties, which killed the incentive to do an already boring thing even more.. which led to more systems falling under the minmatar tide.
If we want to have good changes that aren't over-reaching or that propagate unintended consequences, we must be honest with ourselves and complete in our assessments of the root causes of the issue.
Here's the problem with calling a 'reset'. Let's say that a reset happens and then the Amarr do really well, holding versus the Minmatar and even sometimes doing better.
ReplyDeleteThen another factional warfare change roles out, a big one. With good reason, suddenly the Minmatar pilots are calling for a reset...
You can't just press a button and change everything because of a change to game mechanics; it invalidates the work of players. It also gives sides a good reason to call for a reset on whatever grounds they want. If CCP changes tech moons, you're sure not as hell going to see them reset sov all over null to 'reset' and give all the alliances a 'fair chance'.
If Amarr is doing badly, it's *their own damn problem*. Their militia can aggressively recruit new players. They can make a deal with the Caldari to run supporting operations to seize and hold systems. They can try all sorts of other things. What they can't do is complain they have less pilots and the odds are against them, and so they should get a magic return to the beginning.
It may be that the imbalance is from players that don't *want* to be Amarr or fight for the Amarr. The Amarr are the slave-keeping religious zealots of EVE, and who likes that? Minmatar are the rebels, the underdogs, the oppressed, and people like to feel they're being a hero against the villain.
The Minmatar also arguably have cooler-looking ships. When was the last time you heard someone talk about how good an Amarr ship looked? On the other hand, the Rifter is the iconic ship of EVE.
The Amarr militia haven't lost the war due to bad mechanics. They've lost it due to bad public relations.
Good points.
DeleteI just want to point out that I'm not calling for CCP to reset anything. It's a player-determined reset. If they want to do it, they do it, if they don't, they don't.
(And I realize I had a sentence in there partially blaming CCP for not resetting FW when Inferno released. I've amended that sentence to make my original thought clearer. It's more about the unbalanced mechanics, really.)
I feel like I should debunk a few things said here.
DeleteYou say that Amarr should aggressively recruit. Well, here's about how that would go:
"Come to Amarr. We are outnumbered. We're at T1 so your LP is worth just about nothing. We ARE pretty good at the whole pvp thing and get a good number of kills and generally at a level of efficiency worth being proud of, but, you'll have to find some other way to make up your ship losses."
As opposed to Minmatar or Caldari who can say, "Oh, hey, we totally have easy mode for ISK right now."
The problem is, Amarr started out behind. And yes, I get the whole "You guys could have taken more systems before Inferno" thing. I do. Perhaps. Every effort my corp made in our TZ was removed in six hours or less by the next TZ minmatar. With better coordination, we may have been able to do it. I don't know.
What I do know is, Amarr has benefited from an influx of players, but not to the degree the minmatar have. Combined with the massive ISK flow the Minnies have, it's made it an unappealing prospect to even try to gain back our losses. So, a bunch of us ARE changing to Caldari. However, and it baffles me that you guys still haven't figured this out, we're not leaving the Amarr/Minmatar warzone. Not leaving the warzone. Not leaving the warzone. Okay, now you've got it.
We're adapting to be able to afford the pvp.
As for your player-induced reset? No thanks. We'll take it when we take it.
I respectfully disagree. "*their own damn problem*" is the problem presently.
DeleteBetween goons, and plex mechanics, which have nothing to do with anything relating to the Amarr militia, you cannot tell me with an informed straight face that the Amarr militia had a solid run of it.
I don't think that the majority of Amarr militia want a reset. I think most of them want an honest shot at being able to come back and wipe the :smug: off your face.
I think making even the losing faction capable of replacing ships and not relying on out of their militia methods to regain isk lost PVP'ing is the answer.
Hell most Amarr don't even care that Minmatar can print 6B ISK a week running missions never even seeing the front lines of combat. They just want to be able to have their LP be worth enough that they can sell shit on the market to buy replacement ships.
Facwar was imbalanced from the beginning because of the difference in plex rat strength. At the end of the day the Minmatar are winning because of a PVE advantage that goes back to 2008. How freaking pathetic is that?
ReplyDeletelol poetic, not showing one of my comments aye?
ReplyDeletelet me put it mildly then. It won't work, and ideas like this won't get your voice heard within the very loose and unofficial leadership of the minmatar militia, no matter how well-known you are as a blogger.
At least susan understands FW better than you do, and so her posts make sense, although to be fair her's is also propaganda.
Integrate yourself more into the corp, and comms, and actually talk to people. What do you expect people to do, talk to you through your blog, and from there we'll actually take your posts seriously?
Disappointing. One of the worst posts I've ever seen.
Because your previous comment was pointless and anonymous. I let through the majority of anonymous comments unless they don't have much of a point other than dickwadishness.
DeleteThis was moderately less dickwadish than then one I denied. :)
There aren't a lot of chit-chat channels in the Militia Teamspeak, and those where folks are chit-chatting are password protected, and I won't be bothered hunting down invites and such. Those people want to insularize themselves, so be it.
I chat with people from time to time. Folks from AUTOZ and Iron Oxide.
This post was focused on what we could do as players, since CCP isn't going to do anything about the situation in the near future. And I wanted the discussion to revolved around what we could not, not what we wish CCP would do.
I left Amarr FW because, quite frankly, I found the Minmatar pilots to be asshats. There, I said it. "GF" was a rare sight in local. A lot of it was, "LOL I PWNZ0R j00!!!" And quite frankly I play to have fun (win or lose), not get smack talked all day. I get less piss and vinegar out in null sec of all places.
ReplyDeleteSo I quit. I can have fun elsewhere without the 3 year old trolling / smack talk. Took my buddies with me.
Want us to come back and care? The militia will have to adjust its attitude. You can hold all the systems for all I care, just don't do it with dickery. That's all I ask.
I agree, dude. The level of smack talk can get a little ridiculous. I try to avoid it myself, except in an obviously fun way (especially if it ridicules myself as well.)
DeleteIs that you Pred? <3
Deleteroll over give us all sytems and a tribal tempest each and give us jove space for being winners
ReplyDelete