Length of Lost in EVE aside, Hans Jagerblitzen and Seleene appear on the episode, for about an hour and twenty minutes. From 0:28:00 to 1:49:00.
The interesting part of the podcast is where the hosts, Jade and Rundle, ask Hans and Seleene to rate the involvement and contributions of each of their fellow CSM members. It begins at 1:11:20. Hans is unable to answer for over twenty seconds. It actually sounds like he's choking on his own spit, the prospect of saying anything about anyone that might cause someone to be angry with him is causing all sorts of discomfort.
So for the next ten minutes, the hosts lowball the requirements of the question, so that Hans can give them some sort of answer. Seleene seems to think assigning everyone a colour is acceptable. Eventually Hans and Seleene agree that there are six CSM7 members who are doing a good job, and seven who shouldn't be on the council.
Bravo, Hans and Seleene. Genitalia, confirmed. Nutsack, still missing.
The only two they're willing to name explicitly for not contributing are Issler and Darius III. But those two are easy. Everyone and their pets know they were wasted votes. So calling out those two, while keeping the other five names a secret, is no information at all.
Although, not stated on this podcast, both are completely unwilling to throw anyone under the bus because they don't want to create a bad working relationship with any of their fellow CSM members. Which would be fine if all those CSM7 members were actually doing things of value. But as stated during those uncomfortable ten minutes, there are seven CSM7 members who aren't doing much of anything at all. So why be worried about a working relationship with someone that isn't showing up to do any work?
Hans even suggests the following to CSM8 voters:
[1:21:30] "The advice to voters the next time around, is [to] keep an eye on the people that are already doing the job. Not the people that want the job, [but] the people that are already doing the job and just want to be able to do it with greater access and greater information and take it to the next level."If Hans isn't going to name any names, erring on the side of being nice to everybody, then the voters are left to guess which six busted their asses and which seven did not. Do the six that did bust their asses really want to be running CSM8 campaigns against the seven who did nothing? Maybe the electorate get it wrong, assume that Elise is one of the no-gooders, and that Dovinian is a do-gooder. That would be a terrible tragedy.
Whatever happened to transparency? Call them out now. They'll either continue doing nothing, or they'll get the kick in the pants that spurs them into being contributors.
They did eventually make a few comments on each of their fellow representatives, so some reading between the lines (and telling silences) will have to do for now.
To sum up their responses on each CSM7 representative:
Hans Jagerblitzen: (Getting representatives to scorecard themselves is ridiculous.) He obviously feels he is hard-working. (I wouldn't disagree.) Would he want to see someone just like himself on CSM8? Yes.
Seleene: Hardworking. Has a Pandemic Phone to Soundwave and Unifex. CSM8, yes.
Greene Lee: Language barrier to the max. Doesn't spend much time communicating with CCP. Seleene and Hans hear that he might be doing a bunch of translating to Russian players. (I wonder, if he can't speak English well, how does he translate what he has trouble understanding in the first place.) In an effort to not sound negative, they both give him the benefit of the doubt. CSM8, no.
Darius III: CSM8, no.
Elise Randolph: The super-nerd of CSM7. Excellent at all things ships. (We all knew this though.) CSM8, yes.
Issler Dainze: CSM8, no.
UAxDEATH: A long silence. Hans gives the floor to Seleene, "You know him better than me." That's not the sort of thing you'd hear if the guy showed up on the Skype channel regularly. Would seem that he is mostly absentee. CSM8, no.
Two Step: Hard working. Neither have an issue with his input. (I was disappointed that he does not actually do the job of Secretary, and Hans has to pick up all that slack as Vice-Secretary.) CSM8, yes.
Meissa Anunthiel: Dropped off the face of the earth. CSM8, no.
Kelduum Revaan: Five full seconds of silence. A lot of lip smacking and umming and awing, as Hans and Seleene figure out some positive spin. That says all there is to say about Kelduum. His only contributions have been towards the corporate management UI and something to do with mineral compression. (And to claim that Kelduum knows how to retain new players is a falsehood. His solution is, "Get them into EVE University." He has no clue how to retain players if EVE University is not part of the process.) CSM8, no.
Dovinian: Was involved with mineral compression with Kelduum. His only contribution, apparently. CSM8, no.
Alekseyev Karrde: Hard-working. Invaluable. CSM8, yes.
Trebor Daehdoow: Workhorse. CSM8, yes.
So there's the six representatives that Hans and Seleene would be glad to serve with on another CSM (assuming each were to run again), and there are the seven reps they think should not run again.
I believe the exact phrase was "invaluable"
ReplyDeleteI dont think you give the discourse a lot of credit. Once they got down to naming names they gave much more than a one word answer. Nuance is important, you either didn't pick up on it or didn't want your readers to.
I stuck a YES/NO next to each representative, and coloured their name either GREEN or RED. I'm pretty sure I picked up on the nuances.
DeleteIf you wanted me to do a transcript of the podcast, you're looking at the wrong guy. See Hans or Trebor for that.
Trebor, Seleene, Hans and Alekseyev should all be firmly in the NO camp for their participation in that trainwreck that was the Voting Reform thread.
ReplyDeleteTrebor for coming up with the idea and not having a problem making 1/6th of the voting population of Eve count less than everyone else, and the other 3 for showing total contempt to anyone who dared have a problem with that.
That showed their true colours 100% more than any vague notions of how "hard" they do or don't work.
Elise is about the only one I'd really want to see back again, if only because his knowledge of ship stuff is top notch. Wish he would have had a firm anti-supercapital counterweight this time around, as the discussion of supercap proliferation at this past summit was WAY too slim.
The YES and NO's are strictly from Hans and Seleene's perspective. My personal views are not reflected in that list.
DeleteI too would remove Trebor. (Word has it he's not planning to run again, anyhow.)
Even though I also thought that thread was a total crapbag, you can't purely put someone in a NO category just for that single thread. Thats ridiculous.
DeleteWhile I wasn't happy with how that thread turned out, I think the bigger thing to pay attention to in this situation is the CSM as a whole and why certain members are reacting and acting the way they are.
I may not totally agree with the most visible CSM members in terms of the things they're saying and their stances, but the fact that Hands, Alek, and Seleene are more or less the ONLY CSM members actively putting themselves out there says a lot more about the group rather than the individuals.
Some of the tasks the other CSM members are doing might not really require much public activity, but at that point why do they even need to be on the CSM? I mean, mineral compression? Really? That needs a CSM? Maybe next year someone should run on the mineral compression platform... *rollseyes*
I can give Trebor a downvote simply because he thought it would be a good idea to try to rig the voting to lessen the effect of nullsec votes. I can give Trebor a downvote because he thinks 25% of the vote going to unelected candidates are votes that should somehow be counted. I can give Trebor a downvote simply because his criteria for any voting reforms suggestions was to ensure that the effectiveness of bloc voting be lessened.
DeleteIf those are the sorts of ideas that come from Trebor, then better he not be in a position to give ideas to the people in charge of the game.
Meant to reply to the anonymous comment. :)
DeleteSure sure. We're done, man! I'm leaving your shit out on the lawn.
Delete@Pinky
DeletePoetic already covered why Trebor should be on that list, but the inclusion of Seleene, Aleks and Hans is because of how they responded to it - their trolling (Seleene and Alekseyev in particular) escalated the hell out of a thread that was already pretty on-edge thanks to Trebor's sorry attempt at nerfing a specific bloc of players, and in the aftermath, neither Seleene nor Alekseyev even admitted their part in the thread becoming what it was (Hans, to his credit, remained silent about that side of things, not saying anything one way or the other).
No matter how you slice it, that's a pretty serious lack of communication ability, which is particularly egregious when one of the parties involved is the CSM Chair. With communication skills that lacking, how can these people be expected to effectively communicate issues with CCP? (The answer is in the CSM minutes: they can't)
For Seleene, you could even go a step further and ask what the hell kind of Chair has no idea what someone is going to say while posting a discussion thread on behalf of the CSM. You'd think someone who was an effective communicator might at least want to vet the post to make sure it communicates (there's that word again!) their goal in this to the playerbase. Of course, there's always the chance that he did know about the content and either supported it or didn't care, and only partially backed away after it got shredded to pieces. Either way, it's pretty damning stuff, and it's why seeing them try to wiggle off the hook for this is kind of gross.
That entire thread was pretty lulzy, but you're a bit mistaken if you think that that thread wouldn't have been escalated by Goons regardless of how anyone posted in it. The thread was doomed from the second Trebor clicked the submit button. In fact, Hands made quite a few posts where he literally said absolutely nothing but generic politically crafted neutral remarks and STILL the thread was escalated.
DeleteI wasn't pleased with how they responded, but the fact that they're still the only CSM representatives willing to attempt any sort of public interfacing leads me to put them ahead of the rest of the council. I'm sure come election time, you'll hear some campaign from the quiet guys like Kelduum or Meissa about how they chose to spend their time on the CSM being productive and working on game changes rather than making public appearances where they offend people, but that will be a total bag of crap.
I agree that the communication isn't ideal, but it speaks to me more of the internal situation of the other CSM members rather than the individual leadership ability of the individuals in charge. I'm not saying that Seleene is the best chairman ever or a Mittani, he wasn't voted in with the intention of becoming chair, but you can tell that as a whole they're a tad overworked and increasingly frustrated at the rest of the council in terms of contribution level. The CSM candidates don't get paid, so despite being elected their time is purely volunteer and without CCP backed measures to get rid of people, theres nothing on the planet that the Chairman can do other than to ignore non-contributors. While you don't want to be create a hostile work environment, having people being total non-contributors with no care or consequence creates a toxic and unproductive environment where people who do care turn into people who don't either from overworked burnout or being frustrated at being the only people who give a damn.
@Pinky
DeleteFirst, it's a hilarious retcon of this CSM to suggest that they're "willing" to communicate at all, considering they've been incognito as a whole before that voting thread came up.
Second, they don't get brownie points just for communicating when their communication veers from useless to openly hostile. Trying to pin this on the non-participating members is asking players to ignore the quite frankly reprehensible actions of the participating members. In short, none of us care what Kelduum or Issler or Meissa didn't say, we care very deeply about what Seleene, Trebor, Aleks and Hans DID say, and none of it was good.
As for Seleene as the chair - he may not have ran with the "intention" of being chair, but he did put himself up for the role for the CSM's internal vote (and his near clean sweep of the votes definitely suggests some back-room lobbying). Neither of these things are bad, of course, but it goes directly against your attempt to paint him as some "unwilling" Chair or anything like that. He clearly wanted the position and won it. Now he has to deal with the criticism of the completely awful job he's done so far.
I also do fully believe that the thread could have been saved early on - Hans and Alekseyev were present on the first and second pages of it, and instead of trying to put a growing fire out, they decided to pour gasoline on it by trolling everyone who had a problem with their ridiculous and juvenile "tinfoil" comments.
Delete"Neither of these things are bad, of course, but it goes directly against your attempt to paint him as some "unwilling" Chair or anything like that. He clearly wanted the position and won it. Now he has to deal with the criticism of the completely awful job he's done so far."
Delete@Problem Dog
Two Step is more interesting. He also lobbied for the Chairman seat, really wanting it. I believe they threw him the Secretary bone, to soothe some butt hurt. It sort of sucks that he refuses to actually fulfill that role. Rather, the role of Secretary ends up falling upon Hans. Since Hans does not like a rocking boat, he sucks up all that responsibility without complaint, Two Step kinda skates on by without anything negative sticking to him.
I disagree regarding the thread being saved. They definitely made it worse, but the thread was DoA when Trebor had specific provisions about reducing the CFC voting bloc effectiveness, the CFC wasn't going to let that go no matter what anyone said.
DeleteBeing active myself within the highsec/wardec and FW communities, Alek and Hands have both done an acceptable job regarding FW and war dec mechanics with interfacing with their respective communities about changes. Where they haven't been effective is publically keeping a record of their transactions and creating transparency. I'm not necessarily trying to defend their so-called 'reprehensible' actions, i'm just pointing out that their :words: speak volumes more about the CSM as a whole rather than their individual character and ability.
My question to you is who would you replace Seleene with as the CSM chair and why? Would a different chair out of the current CSM8 be able to promote and increase the activity and participation of the rest of the CSM? Or is D3 gonna D3 regardless? I'm leaning towards the latter.
@Pinky
DeleteI don't think it would matter who was Chair. CSM7 shies away from controversy. No one on CSM7 has The Mittani's ability to create controversy (or embrace it) and turn it to his ends, to make controversy work for them.
I'm not sure any current CSM members would make a good Chair. It's pretty telling that only Seleene and Two Step offered themselves up for the Chair position (every other votable position had at least 3 candidates), and with Two Step i'm not even sure if it was because he truly thought he could do it or that he felt it was rightfully his (according to the rules, it was). To be truly effective you need to know how to control a narrative, and this voting reform thread going the way it did was the exact opposite of that.
DeleteAnother observation I've had about this CSM is that they don't seem to be able to operate very well without any predefined structure. Take a look at how big a deal the whole "stakeholder" thing is to this current CSM, and also how much of a focus was put on their own processes and procedures and powers at the Summit: they want to be clearly told what they can and can't do, and how to do it. Compare that to someone like The Mittani, who is able to recognize that simply being at the table with CCP *IS* the power. Big difference in philosophy.
I also truly think this factors into the near-total radio silence we've seen from the CSM as an entity. Outside of their own rarely-updated Twitter account, you never hear from "The CSM", just from the individuals who decide they want to bother. This leads to a complete lack of a unified message, which was (yet another) reason the voter reform thread went so terribly - it became impossible to extract what the actual CSM's position was on any of it. It was 40+ pages of No True Scotsman from the few that bothered participating over and over again. It smacks of a lack of directive and organization, which needs to come from the Chair. Hence why I say Seleene's done an awful job.
That said, the Chair can't make truly inactive people active, either. As you so perfectly put it, a D3 is going to D3 no matter who the chair, no matter what the rules. At that point, it's sort of up to the voters to suss out who's contributing and who isn't (via forum posts, twitter, blogs, trying to get in touch with them, etc etc) and vote accordingly in the future.
@problem
DeleteWell said. Its a frustrating situation, and one that i'm not sure much can be done with until the next election. I suppose thats why the current CSM calling out other members doesn't really bother me that much. Regarding Poe's reference to the Mittani and using controversy as a positive, I think the current internal frustration brewing within the CSM could be a potential catalyst for something better. Let the strong personalities come out and take the "super best friends" hat off if it means getting shit done. At the very worst, I still feel like its a better option than the total radio silence we've been getting and will be more effective than the current path regarding the CSM as a whole. Basically what i'm saying is its still too early to judge the current CSM since their narrative is still being written.
I don't think it's reasonable to expect CSM reps to badmouth each other. Hans had his initial reaction exactly right, and I wish both he and Seleene had refused to be drawn further into this line of questioning. As Hans said to you, CSM reps need to be focused on outcomes, and insulting each other is only going to be counter-productive.
ReplyDeleteThe job of analysing the effectiveness of representatives falls to the citizen journalists of Eve -- people like YOU!
What are you saying? The people we elected to be effective communicators are being hoodwinked by PODCAST hosts?
DeleteSure gives a lot of faith into how well they'll be able to sell concepts to people who actually have money and livelihoods on the line, doesn't it?
The question itself was inappropriate and instead of silence, they should have openly reject to answer and call the interviewer incompetent. They were asked to rate their COMPETITORS on the next election without them able to answer.
ReplyDeleteIf you really want to know how a CSM member is performing, you should ask them directly to speak on their own behalf. And if they won't, well, that speaks volumes. It's not really fair to ask the more vocal and apparently more active members to evaluate their colleagues.
ReplyDelete-- Mynxee
Blaming this on the podcast host who asked him is nuts. Neither Seleene nor Hans were at all obligated to answer any of those questions or participate in that - a firm "no, we're not going to do that" would have shut it down completely. They chose not to, and instead decided to go the way they did. They don't get to back off from that after the fact.
Delete