tl;dr: I personally think the Crimewatch 2 changes are necessary and good, but I argue that their net effect is to make highsec safer. I call out those people (esp. CCP and CSM) who would state that Crimewatch 2 will not make highsec safer.
How does highsec become safer? Crimewatch 2 (CW2) aims to curtail certain highsec PvP tactics, tactics which are popular under the current implementation of Crimewatch (now known as CW1). Some of these changes are necessary, but that doesn't change the fact that by adding penalties to those tactics they will see a decrease in their use, which will result in an overall decrease in PvP activity in highsec.
I'm not arguing that CW2 is not a necessary change. For the most part, it is highly necessary, and has a number of excellent features. It certainly simplifies what was an overly complex system in CW1. All of that doesn't change the fact that the net effect in highsec will be a decrease in overall PvP. There's nothing in CW2 that encourages an increase in highsec PvP. CW2 actively discourages certain types of PvP.
What tactics does CW2 curtail? Can-flipping goes away completely. No longer can the stupid be tricked into PvP. Ganking. CW2 does not eliminate ganking, but it does curb certain aspects of the highsec gank. Neutral repping is curtailed, since they are open to attack by anyone. Station games are curtailed. That anyone with a suspect flag can be attacked by anyone (not only the person aggressing) will reduce certain types of player-on-player aggression. Not too mention that victims get killrights just for being attacked, not for being killed.
Some might argue that it is good that these tactics are being eliminated or mitigated, that those tactics were unfair and dishonourable. I don't argue that PvP needs to be made fair and/or honourable, though. It is the case that PvPers of all varieties look for advantage. Without a sense of advantage, PvP tends to not be initiated. Thus, I argue that CW2 acts to curtail certain advantages, which curtails certain types of PvP, which makes highsec a safer locale in which to play the game.
So if someone tells you CW2 is going to have no effect on highsec PvP, they have their head up their ass. Or they're just outright lying to you.
Its not going to stop me from doing jack shit.
ReplyDeleteThankfully, nothing stops Goonswarm. Unfortunately, Goonswarm is not everybody. Kills in highsec will see a decrease due to CW2.
Delete"Can-flipping goes away completely. No longer can the stupid be tricked into PvP. Ganking."
ReplyDeleteI think you're wrong there man. Stupid people will still be tricked. It's the mid level that won't fall for it. At the same time, I doubt people THINK when they fall for the trick and usually do it because they act out of emotion and not reason
I think the 'can-flipping' changes are a good thing. If I flip a can in highsec and more people can shoot at me, that's a cool twist in my opinion. I am basing this on the assumption that I can then shoot them back, which I hope is correct?
ReplyDeleteCan-flipping had a bit of a goldfish bowl feel to it for me in CW1, too many people gawping in from the outside. Now, if these gawpers shoot, blood will flow.
Fingers crossed, anyhoo.
MB.
where are you going to find these cans to flip - there are none out there anymore after the barge changes.
DeleteThere's a vast amount of pilots still can mining, maybe you're not looking hard enough? The new improved holds just mean they can go afk for longer. People get greedy.
DeleteCrime watch isn't for high sec as much as it is for low. It's something that CCP can absolutely screw up, but imagine if they offer 10% less material need for construction jobs begun in low sec or 10% more material gained for refining in low sec. Add in the crime watch revisions, the war dec revisions, possible sentry gun revisions.... And a picture starts to emerge of a more accessible low sec. Everyone is focusing on the wrong thing.
ReplyDelete-Zarnak
So if someone tells you CW2 is going to have no effect on highsec PvP, they have their head up their ass. Or they're just outright lying to you.
ReplyDeleteCorrect statement.
I also think the changes to High-sec PvP will be actually _improved_ due to these changes, for reasons similar to Miura Bull's statement.
Crimewatch seems to patch some holes (ooc repping) while opening opportunities for non-wardec high-sec PvP. I see small guys like Solstice Project turning Hek local into a criminal-flag paradise for combat.
I don't think many realize that there will always be ways to trick players into pvp in hisec as long as its possible to attack other players at all. CW2 doesn't raise the bar like increasing barge hp or removing insurance for suicide ganking. It just moves the bar on a horizontal plane, forcing people who have learned the old system to learn the new one, and we all know how good hisec dwellers are at learning about anything that doesn't involve shooting npcs or inanimate objects (if even those).
ReplyDeleteCW2 is declaring open season on the stupid.
So you're just making an academic point, then? You're not implying beyond that Crimewatch 2 will decrease high-sec PVP? It seems to me like you're eating around the edges of a far more troublesome argument (that somehow these aspects of pre-Crimewatch 2 high-sec PVP are sacred and should be maintained, or some variant of that old tune), but don't exactly want to come out with it for one reason or another.
ReplyDeleteThe bottom line is that these changes are necessary not only to simplify that whole aspect of the game's mechanics (being that it's a freaking pillar of the EVE Online experience, mechanics-wise), but also to rid EVE of shoddy designs that aid in effort-free pseudo-piracy. If people want to mess with noobs, they should be able to do that. But EVE's mechanics shouldn't be so screwed up that it makes it especially easy or risk-free to do.
I really wish you'd step out with the argument that seems to be gnawing away at your soul right now, instead of acting like you're just positing a dry academic point. Grow a pair, Poetic.
Anonymous dude tells me to grow a pair. Hilarious.
Delete"It seems to me like you're eating around the edges of a far more troublesome argument (that somehow these aspects of pre-Crimewatch 2 high-sec PVP are sacred and should be maintained, or some variant of that old tune), but don't exactly want to come out with it for one reason or another."
Not at all. They should have replaced what they were fixing with other mechanics to encourage PvP. CW2 will result in a PvP net loss for highsec. If they're removing certain types of PvP, they should be replacing with other types. Take here, give there. Rather, CW2 is all take, no give.
That's a faulty argument, though. They're not removing PVP, they're fixing busted mechanics that some players choose to finesse into PVP opportunities. Why add extra PVP to replace PVP that wasn't supposed to exist in the first place?
DeleteAnd the funny thing is that you're not even arguing that this PVP becomes "impossible" after Crimewatch 2. You may think you are, but you're not. Because it doesn't become impossible. It becomes, perhaps, more difficult or risky. The mechanics behind it are more transparent and on-the-surface. And perhaps a great many people who once did these things when they were easy and less risky will decide to go elsewhere. Maybe they'll leave high-sec and troll around low or null, doing one thing or another. But you know what? That's on them. EVE shouldn't be designing mechanics with an eye toward subsidizing the ballsack sizes of wannabe pirates in high-sec.
"Take here, give there. Rather, CW2 is all take, no give."
DeleteExcept for the fact nothing in the new rules actually restrict more PvP from taking place. What you call "making space safe" is actually allowing more people to pew pew against those that break the law and assist others that break the law. "canflipping goes away completely" is disingenuous when the truth is that ballsy canflippers will still do this plenty, they'll just need to be prepared to fight whoever is nearby.
And, you conveniently left out discussion of lowsec in all of this, because to discuss lowsec is to highlight all the ways that CCP is making the game more dangerous. Just to revisit, what these changes do is make life *more dangerous* for canflippers and those that use neutral logistics - nothing stops them from doing it in the first place.
But hey, when you make a half-ass claim about Crimewatch likely being a mess its always easier to double down and defend yourself with an elementary and stereotypical EVE-blogger "I told you so post" rather than accurately assessing the feature as a whole.
.... And here comes the part where you try to discredit me, too, for posting anonymously (as if that matters) rather than address the fact that you're spinning the CW2 story to pat yourself on the back.
"... which will result in an overall decrease in PvP activity in highsec."
ReplyDeleteYou means it will make it less safe, beacause those people do those difrent types of "pvp" in CW1 do them beacause they feal safe(only the target can harm them) and CW2 will make it that anyone not only the "target" can hurt them beacause the "suspect" flag wil make anyone will be able to kill him thus making him less safe.
EVE essentially un-playable since Inferno 1.2.6 with no signs of CCP even acknowledging the problem (people with far newer/nicer rigs than mine are experiencing the massive, cyclical frame-rate drop/near-freezing), can-flipping, and especially ninja-salvaging simply gone...I learned to probe because of ninja-salvaging, and my Tarryn made his first billion doing it almost exclusively.
ReplyDeleteFuck me, I'm closer to hitting the "Cancel Account" button now than I ever have been in almost four years, and that includes the Incarna debacle.
Soundwave is a monumental hypocrite, and Greyscale is simply a fucking idiot.
Bloody Hell!
CW2, as I found out today, is NOT intended to be a "stand-alone" feature.
ReplyDeleteBasically CW2 + new bounty system = phase 1 of "giving players the tools they need to enforce things ... removing NPCs from the equation ... player-player interaction being preferable to player-NPC interaction in almost every case."
So, eventually, no more CONCORD? He didn't come RIGHT out and say it, but it sure sounds like it. Especially when during Q&A someone directly asked him about the bounty system and if say, Goons could use it to literally "drown" someone right out of the game, and if that was "working as intended"....and Soundwave said YES! "I really don't like limiting what players can do." <---straight from the horse's ass -- I mean mouth! ;-) lol
They can never get rid of CONCORD. CONCORD has powers that they cannot gift to players, ever. Players cannot be trusted to do the job of CONCORD. I don't think I'd want CONCORD to go away. Granted, I think they are making highsec safer ... but a highsec without CONCORD is lowsec.
DeleteI'd argue that the far majority of can flipping does not lead to PvP - PvP implies that there's 2 players in the fight. Realistically most fights that result from can flipping are more like PvE, but with an AI that's easier to kill.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with neutral reps in high-sec is not that it gives a PvP advantage, just that there's no risk involved to the logistics pilots. Sit on the station/gate, rep a couple of cycles and dock/jump.
"Without a sense of advantage, PvP tends to not be initiated."
ReplyDeleteThat's a problem with the psychology of the players. Not with game mechanics.