The following map is the current state of the Minmatar-Amarr warzone geography.
The Minmatar have more systems under their control by default. I'm not overly concerned about this particular inequity. The larger problem is the geography itself. The difficulty of waging war within the Minmatar regions versus the Amarr regions.
What needs to be accomplished is broadening the Minmatar warzone, creating more stargate connections to allow for multiple points of ingress (or egress, as the case may be) into Metropolis in particular. This eliminates Hofjaldgund as a chokepoint, and opens up Minmatar systems to same level of access as systems in the Amarr regions.
I've added four new system connections to the map below, coloured green.
Now, I don't suggest that this is the solution. It's a possible solution, but may have problems of its own. I do offer it up as a starting point of discussion.
Apparently CCP approached Hans, back at the CSM Summit, with questions about the warzone, what might be done to fix it. They were more than willing to look at ways to fix the geography. Hans' response, according to the Hans Visits Fweddit discussion, was to ignore the request, because no Amarr had come to him specifically to discuss the issue or offer up changes that might work.
Hans wonders why he's called out for his Minmatar bias at times. He's stated that he himself knows the Minmatar-Amarr geography to be problematic, but he wasn't about to offer up any solutions of his own accord. The Amarr were going to have to come to him first. What an amazing representative we elected. Why should he have to ask folks to help on the issue of geography, to inform people that CCP would like to address the issue? He's Minmatar, the warzone inequities are to his side's advantage, after all. So, he was going to wait for the Amarr themselves to bring it up, which they never did. (I doubt any Amarr even knew it was an issue that CCP had placed upon the table, something they were willing to devote resources to fixing.) I hope that it isn't too late to fix the issue, given Hans dropping the ball in this regard.
So, before it's too late. Let's discuss the warzone. Maybe this is something that could get done for Retribution 1.2 or 1.3. Let's see if we can not push CCP towards making changes, let's as a community succeed where Hans has failed.
You really don't understand politics do you? If Hans offers a suggestion w/o amarr input, you guys are going to complain, he waits for amarr inputs you guys complain. You as bad as Susan.
ReplyDeleteNobody but Hans knew it was an issue CCP wanted to discuss and/or resolve. It was his responsibility to convey this to the interested parties, so that a dialogue could occur.
DeleteI learned of CCP's interest in the topic during HANS VISITS FWEDDIT discussion. That should not have been the first place people learned of CCP's desire to fix the problem.
The geography problem has been random posts here and there, this summer, rather than something more directed and focused.
When did CCP ask Hans about it? Because he OBVIOUSLY did bring it up with the interested parties to have dialogue occur. And why shouldn't of that been the first place? is it not an appropriate forum to ask about it and get feedback?
DeleteMeant Post-Inferno for CCP talking to Hans about it.
DeleteAccording to Hans, the timeframe surrounding the Summit was when he was asked about the geography of the Amarr/Minmatar warzone. They wanted to know what issues the players felt the warzone had, and how they thought it might be improved.
DeleteAnd when did Hans bring this up as a public issue? Because according to the discussion we had with him less than a week ago, he said that no one approached him about the subject, thus he let it drop.
I listened to the recording and that's not at all what Hans said. He mentioned Pinky, maps, Fozzie's interest in working on the geography, and them not having enough time to do it for Inferno. You're just making shit up.
DeleteYou didn't listen to enough of the discussion then. The Fozzie/Pinky stuff is very recent. Listen starting at 42:03. You'll find out when CCP first asked for more information on the geography (back in May/June,) and why Hans dropped the ball on it.
Deletehttp://soundcloud.com/poetic-stanziel/hans-visits-fweddit
To be fair, maybe you guys should be telling Hans the things that you'd like him to raise with CCP (admittedly, you guys might not have been with Amarr at the time). I get why you're mad, but at the same time I understand the point of view that if nobody has raised it with him, it might suggest to him that nobody else really sees it as a problem.
Delete"them not having enough time to do it for Inferno."
DeleteAnd you Totally ignore that statement Poetic which is quite valid, for the summit the interest by all FW parties wasn't with geography so as Hans said at the summit it wasn't a priority then, even for the amarr. If there isn't a large interest in it why would Hans try to push it to priority over other balances and such which did have a massive interest?
1) I absolutely agree, and so does my entire Alliance and so does everyone else I know in the Minmatar Militia that the geography is ridiculous and not conducive to a healthy balance between the factions. If you care to browse around the forums, everyone on both sides has been agreeing about this for months perhaps years.
ReplyDelete2) That map is good (people have proposed other solutions before) but ultimately it solves a lot of problems about the remoteness of Metropolis. I think the Olfeim connection should in fact be through Lulm, since otherwise both parties would have to go through Hisec (Dammalin).
3) I've been on Hans' case for months about the geography. I know he has proposed it to CCP before, or at least discussed the problems of the geography.
According to HANS VISITS FWEDDIT, he has not done much of any discussion on the issue with CCP. He's let it langour because no one from the Amarr has brought it to the table. The Amarr didn't even know it was on the table, that it had CCP's attention. Hans should have brought this out in the open, CCP's willingness to deal with the issue, and I guarantee you, it would have been discussed.
DeleteHe'll claim it was in the minutes. But the minutes were released two months after the actual summit, time that could been spent discussing the issue.
Hans definitely dropped the ball on this problem.
Re #2:
DeleteI think the important connection is Brin. Making it less remote. Perhaps connecting Brin to Lulm or Sirekur.
I'm not too fussed with Olfeim being "protected" by a highsec system. It's odd, but not an impossible situation tactically.
I think immediately following Inferno, however, there were a lot more pressing issues than the geography of the map. Fwarmville, NPC balancing, WZC Tier benefits, etc. that all needed to be quickly addressed. The geography is important, but I agreed when Hans said in the minutes that there was more pressing stuff to get fixed about the actual FW mechanics/system; things that I think this Fast Forward and Retribution updates are hoping to address.
DeleteI don't know if this is true or not, but it kind of just seems like you want to be negative Nancy for the sake of being negative Nancy when it comes to Hans, LNA, the Minmatar and CCP. vOv Hans can do all sorts of stuff about getting the messy Inferno mechanics on the right track to PVP > PVE, and you just go and find something else to blame him for. :P
I had already forwarded them suggestions from the Amarr regarding circumventing the Hof pipe before the May summit even took place. Since the summit, it's been discussed further, Pinky Feldman even made up similar maps months before you finally took interest.
DeleteAll along, CCP's said this is something they plan to address, once the other core issues that are affecting Faction Warfare are addressed first, and are already looking into this as an option for Retribution 1.1 or 1.2 depending on development resources.
There hasn't been much time spent discussing the issue because CCP never needed convincing, nor has there ever been any controversy amongst the community (regardless of faction) about exactly what the problem with the Amarr / Minnie map was. The idea that this was ignored or swept under the rug is pure fabrication.
It's not Hans' job to decide what CCP could or could not accomplish since the Summit in June. All issues should have been presented to them, discussed with the coommunity. Not simply the ones Hans thought were most important.
DeleteIt's CCP's job to decide what they could do in the timeframe alloted. They take all the issues and devote (or not) resources to them.
@vordak:
DeleteSo your view is that CCP wanted to fix the geography...many players wanted the geography fixed, 5 months ago. Hans knew that there were more pressing issues, so it was his DUTY to hide from CCP the players' desire to get the geography, to hide from the players CCP's desire to get the geography fixed, because of his superior and unique knowledge about how adding a few connections to the warzone would take them so many man hours that we'd lose other, more important updates. Do you seriously believe that or are you just trolling? What else do you think the CSM should hide from CCP and the players, for our own good? The thing about it is, if you imagine there was no FW representative on the CSM, ccp goes straight to the forums, finds suggestions, it's fixed months ago. Hans' existence seems to be holding back FW changes, as CCP goes to him on them and he selectively transmits players' opinions based on whether he agrees with them. I'm not in any FW militia, but if I were, Hans would have just lost my vote.
But, to be complete, this isn't just a Hans problem. None of the CSM seem to be interested in facilitating quick communication between CCP and the players. That makes them just facilitators and errand boys. They want to be IMPORTANT. This means inserting themselves into the process wherever possible, and shutting the players out. Make the minutes as long as possible, so that they're less about communication between CCP and the players, and more about putting the CSM in a spotlight--and then they will take longer to come out, again minimizing the perception that the CSM is just facilitators--especially if a huge section of the minutes is the CSM talking about the CSM's role.
It's only to be expected, elections attract people who want to be important. Holding elections for a job that doesn't come with a large amount of power tends to mean that you'll fill the slots with people more interested in increasing the power and importance of their position than actually doing the task at hand. While it's an inherent problem, a CSM which falls victim to it more strongly than any other preceding it can and should still be called out on it and replaced in toto.