For some reason, having a cloaked ship in system, the pilot who may or may not be away from their computer, brings nullsec industry, ratting and missioning to a complete standstill.
I'm not quite sure why that is the case, but if the plethora of forum complaints is any indication, it is a problem. Apparently, nullsec players, renters in particular, are babbies.
The solution to this insidious problem is to either 1) tape a post-it note over your local chat window, 2) close your local chat window, or 3) uninstall EVE Online. If you don't know who's in system, then it can't really be a bother. If you're playing World of Warcraft, then it's really not a problem.
How do wormhole people do anything, you might ask? At any point in time, their system could have twenty AFK cloakers watching (or not watching) their every move. Yet, somehow, through force of will perhaps, they manage to do shit. Run sleeper sites, mine, do industry. It's kind of mind-boggling, when you think about it. That people could actually go about their business, without the benefit of knowing who's watching them. Without knowing whether they could be jumped by some enemy fleet at any second.
Nullseccers, on the other hand, have the benefit of knowing when someone is potentially watching them, to know when to be a smidgin extra careful when doing their business. They have information that wormholers do not. Yet wormholers get shit down without local intel, whereas local intel sends nullbears scattering.
The nullsec player who stops doing what they're doing just because some invisible ship is sitting in system, they should spend less time complaining, and more time feeling ashamed of themselves.
hey, nullseccers....not all of us who sit in a system cloaked are afk.
ReplyDeleteWe're watching you. Watching you mine, watching you rat, watching you mission and shoot each other over petty turf wars, when it's 'us' you should really be concerned about.
We're the ones logging your movements, the fact that you've got t2 drones out, that you're flying a mining barge, then occasionally swap to a bs to kill a few rats for a while. Enough observation, enough calculation, we can calculate your skillpoints total, your distribution with a little more time, and a little more after that, your personal quirks and weaknesses.
We're the shadows behind the stars, watching you play. The stalkers, the creepers, the ones who, with enough isk motivation, can sell your entire activity profile to your enemies. We could probe you down in seconds, call our own allies, or we can watch, we can wait...
For in Eve, knowledge is power.
I might be serious, I might be trolling... but, are you nullsec players willing to take that risk?
... and in a wormhole, a cyno isn't going to go up and 10 or so titans and 50 supers land on your head either...
ReplyDeleteThey're different environments, most especially from a travel/logistics perspective.
Cynojammer? From what I understand, that won't stop Blops from hotdropping, but it does stop capitals.
Delete@H. no just capitals and dreads can drop you in a wh. and besides that, who cares what can drop on you. If you get caught you caught. the enemy has plenty of time to prep their setups before they drop on you. grow some balls and use D-scan
Deleteyahh cause wh'ers are always vulnerable to being hotdropped by a big force being brought in by a small ship with a cyno arent they?
ReplyDelete:facepalm:
you do realise that unless being asleep at keyboard everyone should be able to warp out before anything scary actually pops out of that cyno?
Deletebut actually being awake is a bit too much to demand from a nullresident i guess
I love how, at no point, does "Or I could fight" come up as an option.
DeleteUs wormholers would love nothing more than to get jumped. For us industry and pve is just a way to pay for pvp. If someone wants to jump us in the middle of a capital escalation it saves us having to go look for fights.
ReplyDeleteDifference is the whiney nullbears don't want fights.
Again, not quite the same. Sleepers will happily change targets and attempt to eat whoever arrives. Rats in null will stay focused on the bear once aggro is established pretty much whatever the circumstance.
DeleteIn other words (discounting the attacking force), you have a more level playing field in a WH. Arguably a more than level playing field if you can leverage environmental effects.
Which helps further explain why null sec denizens more twitchy by comparison...
Yes wormholes are not "quite the same", but most of the difference is attitude.
DeleteIts not just sites, we'd welcome someone dropping on a peaceful gassing op (and we've had it happen to us many times in the past). It means an opportunity to reship to expensive things and go shoot at people. That is the difference. We WANT the pvp, so even if we had local and afk cloakers we wouldn't change our approach. The 0.0 farmer bears just want to run their anoms and so forth.. so they run and hide at the first sign of an afk cloaker, then whinge about how overpowered it is.
Your best post in a long time - long live the wormhole studs....
ReplyDeleteBeen in nullsec. Dealt with the AFK cloakers. It isn't that tough a nut to crack. Note to bears in nullsec: Suck it up. You've got the sweetest deal in New Eden. Stop whinging and being a bunch of sissies.
ReplyDeleteExactly. Anyone who gets "dropped" in a C3 or higher hole gets caps dropped on them generally pinned against Sleepers and all the exits get closed. AND THEN YOU DIE.
ReplyDeleteOr, I dunno, get some other players together, drop some shiny bait the cloaker can't refuse, and pop him when he shows up to take it.
ReplyDeleteOh, right. EVE is a massively-singleplayer game: "me, myself, and my 5 alts". I forgot. Mah bad. ;-)
Nullseccers are worthless carebear parasites.
ReplyDeleteFullstop, end-of, nothing more to see here.
When I'm rattling and a nuet pops into local, I align out. It's rather simple, they either leave to try and catch me.
ReplyDeleteOr I rat in a talos, makes decent ticks and is quick enough to out run most things trying to catch you.
I kinda understand the "ZOMG I could get hot dropped" argument -almost. If you're not comatose, or trying to act in null like it's high sec, then you should see local spike and GTFO. I'm so use to not looking at local (WH dweller here) that it feels like cheating when I'm in K space. In W space we PVE a lot in PVP fit ships, we just pring logistics instead of relying on local reps. So even if we do get jumped it's not that big of a deal.
ReplyDeleteFWIW: My corp frequently plants cloaky alts in W space systems that we want to keep an eye on, so at some point we can scan down their exits and get an invasion / ganking fleet in. Easy to do when there's no local chat channel intel...
I also don't think AFK cloaking is really a problem, especially for larger alliances which have whole regions to rat in. BUT, imagine you are a starting null alliance, freshly joined into some powerbloc, trying to make enough isk to survive, you rely on taxation of your members. You are given three systems with nearby NPC 0.0 to rat in and you are allowed to rat only in those systems. Naturally, since you are so green, you get picked on by the local bully NPC 0.0 corps. They put an cloaker in every system. Randomly, two/three times a day per average, they drop 10 stealth bombers on some poor soul's head in an anomaly, who is of course tackled in the meantime. How do you deal with that?
ReplyDeleteRat in a fleet, several ships per anomaly? The income plummets, you might as well run missions in high sec with no risk at all. Bait + keeping a fleet on standby ready to come to rescue in a matter of seconds 23.5/7? Such a grand fun for everyone, not even speaking about the income per person. It isn't so much that the ratters are necessarily so bearish, it's more the feeling of helplessness that you can't actively protect your little chunk of space.
It's situations like these that produce the most tears. These and the botters.
you cant start a null alliance. seriously. good luck with that
Delete"a starting null alliance", not "starting a null alliance". Perhaps a bad wording on my part, what I meant was an already functional alliance trying to step into null. And yeah, I know that is quite difficult nowadays if you don't want to be just a renter. But historically such things happened.
Delete"the feeling of helplessness that you can't actively protect your little chunk of space."
ReplyDeleteThis is the crux of your problem. some null sec alliance scammed you into paying for space you weren't ready to hold. you can tell it's a scam because they know your not capable of self defending, but your rent doesn't cover protection. there is every possibility that your landlords are behind the aggression. (i know i would be)
As a ceo in this situation, i would opt to move my people to a less contested location and try and defend a single system by force (instead of rent). if you can't, then start looking at your corp composition, training and values. If your people aren't pulling together to solve this on their own then you may have bigger problems to worry about. you don't need 24/7 coverage. you don't have to have a gank fleet ready to slide down the fire pole at a moments notice. you just have to show that the resources spent haunting you could be better spent haunting someone else (preferably null renter carebears unwilling to defend themselves.)
You are right basically, the last sentence about sums it up (and there are various ways to achieve that). Just to be clear - it is not "my problem", I just wanted to point out from where some of frustration comes from for the readers with no direct experience.
DeleteBut I still think that there is a disparity of the effort required to shut some null sec operation down and the effort required to defend against that. /shrug
After playing the game for 6 years, with much of that time in nullsec, the prolifration of the afk cloaker problem made me do something that:
ReplyDelete1: BOB Failed to do
2: Mercenary Coalition Failed to do
3: Goonswarm Failed to do
4: Suicide Ganks Failed to do
5: Changes to game mechanics Failed to do (ie: nerfs)
and that is leave null sec and come very close to leaving the game.
Put in this perspective, I hope it underlies quite the extent of the problem.
It definitely explains a few things.
DeleteLet's be honest here. If the cloaky lurker was not an advantageous playstyle people would not be fighting so hard to keep it. The advantage is the cloaky doesn't have to pay attention at all, and the occupants of the system have to pay attention constantly, and not just to be watching local. If a cloaky works his way into range and scrams you, whether it is in a belt or an anomaly, most times you are just screwed as his buddies come rolling into the system to gank you. I don't know any corps that enjoy doing coordinated operations ALL the time; some of them roam, some mine, some are doing the organizational work of the corp while online. The corp the cloaky is in, on the other hand, can just do what it is doing until it takes a notion to form a fleet and go harvest the fruits of the intel.
ReplyDeleteI mean, I like combat as much as the next guy, but for you to claim it is no advantage at all is ridiculous. If there were no advantage to it people wouldn't do it. It is literally a no-lose situation; it costs you nothing and only has upside potential.
You earn way more money on WH, during a given time, nullsecers wouldn't care if the danger of afk cloaky was counted on their wallet, but contrary to the sleepers loots, anomalies on null have a fixed value with the bounties, and loot available elsewhere. What could change the value would be nullsec specific like moons stuff, but afk cloky have no importance here. Also nullsec need more stuff to be done than w-space to have a clear system. I think people on npc nullsec won't cry due to afk cloaker as they didn't have to shoot structures.
ReplyDeleteYou all can't be that clueless, although Poetic seems to be as I don't think he's been to nullsec or a wormhole...
ReplyDeleteI run a mining op in null with an Orca and some exhumers with a cloaked enemy in system. The cloaker drops cloak and lights cyno (no recalibration delay) and drops a HIC in middle of my mining op in less time than the most alert mining ship has to warp away (go figure out the timing before you say it can't/doesn't happen that way). Then his friends bridge in. What wormhole have YOU seen that allows that to happen??? Yeah...getting "dropped" in a wormhole is nothing like getting DROPPED in null. The most diligent mashing of scan button won't help. How would a "wormhole attitude" help me? My desire to fight is irrelevant as my fleet of mining ships will die horribly.
But what if I do desire to fight. We all ship up in combat ships. Cloaker stays cloaked because he wants a defenseless gank. So, who is being the sissy there? The problem with AFK cloakers is how no effort is required for one player to disrupt the industry of an entire system. You all claim they are there because they want to fight. Give those carebears a means to find the cloakers and I BET they'll bring a fight.
But at Mord Fiddle says, until then miners can just suck it up. Cynojammers are expensive, but used in a few systems can keep the HICS/DICS out. Logoff, sit in POS and go play something else, try bait. Or set up gate camp in next system, have the miners change system and hope the cloaker follows.
Bring along people to guard your ops. If you get dropped, you can fight back. If you lack the personnel to guard mining ops in nullsec, then maybe you shouldn't be running mining ops in nullsec. Just a thought.
DeleteFrom my perspective, the 'wormhole attitude' is to suck up the losses as occasionally expected and move on. Adapt if necessary. If someone's camping your system, work out ways to kick him out.
DeleteIt's not easy, but it is what w-spacers do.
Being on the receiving end of afk cloak tactics at the moment I can see the attraction. It's easy mode pvp. Minimal risk, lots of kills in places where people are new, very alt tab friendly. It's worth doing for kills, kb stats and lolz even if you don't care about the targets and if you actively dislike the people there then that's just gravy.
ReplyDeleteIt's too easy. The risks are that they can bait you but you can escape that if you're careful - a point on a badger or a noctis doesn't stop you mwding out of range and warping out or that they catch you between systems.
While I certainly accept that any change would have to be done carefully as cloak tactics are a great part of pvp, it shouldn't be so easy to be effective while afk. I support the stream of posts complaining about this, despite having occasionally done it myself. It's overpowered and facerollingly easy.
how is AFK cloaking "easy mode pvp" when by the very definition of "AFK" you are not even there to do anything?
DeleteCloaking works as expected. If people AFK'ing are really a problem for you, HARDEN THE FUCK UP
I completely disagree: If you are actively trying to trap the AFK cloaker he/she will move on and look for a "softer" target. You have to understand and apply bully tactics, as there are only two ways to effectively deal with someone who is bullying you: Either man up and do something about it, or ignore them until they go away. Both tactics work quite well.
DeleteThose of us who live in W space do all of the things that you do in null and we do it without relying on local chat for free intel. Adapt or GTFO...
Ah, the authority on null sec alliances has spoken yet again. What is it with you and Pinky Feldman and the chips on your shoulder? Got rejected by a few null-sec alliances (How is that possible)
ReplyDeleteOk, time for another "IMMODEST PROPOSAL"...
ReplyDeleteReady for it?
Yer not, but here goes anyways: No more "cloaks" at all.
Like modern stealth technology, you're not like a freakin Predator, all invisible to the naked eye and shit, you're just very, VERY difficult to pin down.
-Knock all CovOps, SBs, Force Recons, and BlOps down 1 high slot as they no longer need it for the cloaking mod.
-Reduce sig radius to 10% of current.
-Retain Covert Cyno though, just cause.
Problem solved. You can be seen, you can be dirscanned, if you're in a Recon you can be probed down, though it'll take high skills and some time to do so... and no more AFKing, because eventually someone will nail down your location if you don't stay moving.
Remove the ability to be d-scanned, and you might be onto something. Otherwise, enjoy the 'shrooms. :)
DeleteYou really expect someone flying a 1.5-3B Macherial/Tengu/Vindicator to just ignore the fact that someone is watching them and suddenly drop 50 pilots on your face as "acceptable risk"? Sorry but you're an idiot.
ReplyDeleteIf ratters in null didn't scurry for their POS/station every time a nuet showed up in local, they'd get ganked WAY more often than the 15 or so hours (minimum) it takes to rat up the cost of their ship. The risk of staying in space while a nuet is around is simply not worth the amount of reward it's possible to get from ratting.
Many of them PVP also, but they use ships they're expecting (and financially able) to lose a lot more often for that.