This is another popular instalment of Poetic Talks About Something He Knows Very Little About. These instalments always lead to the very best comments that never see the light of day. Stop calling me a c*nt.
During the New Eden Open, CCP Soundwave riffed about perhaps wanting even more capital ships, playing more distinct roles in the game. For whatever reason, that pie-in-the-sky comment stuck with me.
Granted, I know very little about capitals. I'm nowhere near flying one (I can barely fly battleships), and not sure if I have any real interest in ever flying caps. But the idea, perhaps, has some merit, if a specific role can be found for capitals, one so compelling that people bring them out regularly and consistently. They fight. They die. Perhaps this is tied into a POS revamp.
The role I'm seeing for capitals is in bringing down structures, taking system sovereignty. I'm not sure what all is involved with taking a system, other than that it apparently involves a lot of boring structure shooting. Some variety of structures need to be destroyed, and then replaced with new structures owned by the new alliance. That's about the extent of my knowledge.
Let's say the new role for capital ships is in taking down these structures. I already know that's done, but perhaps the role needs to be magnified ten-fold. Take some structure, if it's attacked by subcaps only, it can be destroyed in eight hours. That's a really long time, and nobody would enjoy being involved in a structure shoot that damned long. Now, if capitals are involved, because they can do so much more damage, let's say that same structure can be taken down in 1.5 hours. The value of caps in those instances becomes much more valuable and desired.
So, there's the role defined. Capital ships basically become essential in sovereignty-based nullsec operations.
The amount of damage per second a structure can take is capped at some value. It's a logarithmic scale. Even if you had 200 battleships, it wouldn't approach the damage output of 10 titans, for instance. Two hundred battleships, the structure pops in eights hours. Ten titans, the structure pops in 1.5 hours. But bringing 11 titans doesn't allow you to bring the structure down any faster than having brought 10 titans.
Now the damage of caps has to be scaled appropriately, so that they do far more damage, an obscene amount more damage than any subcap.
But now you're thinking, capitals are just going to blap the hell out of subcap fleets.
Here's the kicker. As long as a subcap is moving, a capital ship can do nowhere near its maximum damage potential against a subcapital ship. Come up with any reason you want. Resolution. Tracking. Whatever. Doesn't matter. A titan can't hit a frigate or destroyer at all. And it does cruiser level damage against a moving battleship. That might sound a tad ridiculous, but CCP's intention when creating capital ships was likely that they'd do battle with each other, not that they'd be dropped willy-nilly on cruiser gangs. (Pandemic Legion will, of course, hate this idea. They've made a life out of dropping capitals on subcaps.)
Capital ships would do their full (adjusted for movement, distance, resolution, etc.) damage against other capitals. Thus caps have an obscene amount of EHP compared to subcaps. So, while a capital ship can't do much damage to a subcap, a subcap (or fleet of them) won't do a whole helluva lot to a capital (eventually it could be taken down, but only after a long while.)
By the same token, capital ships can't effectively provide logisitics (shield/armor remote repping) to subcaps. And subcaps can't provide meaningful remote repping to caps. The same applies to ewar.
Since capital ships are now a beast unto their own, it's now appropriate to start building out entire classes of capitals. Ewar capitals (perhaps carriers are repurposed into ewar ships, they're the faster more agile of the capital ship classes). Logistics focused caps (supercarriers already sort of play this role.) DPS focused caps (which already exist as titans.) There's no longer just titans and carriers, but more focused variations with specific factional roles. Perhaps you can have capital-sized titans, the cruisers of capital ships. Whereas the current supercapital titans are the battleships of capitals. The door is wide-open to a whole lot of design ingenuity.
On any field of battle where sovereignty is being contested, you now have two battles raging, one between capital ships. And another between sub-capital ships. There is very little (if any) cross-over between the two. Perhaps structures have two EHP values, a portion that can only be affected by subcaps, and a portion that can only be affected by capital ships, thus a reason to bring out fleets of subcaps and capitals to a fight.
Perhaps the cost of manufacturing capitals should be reduced by 50%. That will lead to more proliferation, but if they're entering the field of battle more often, then they're getting blapped more often. Perhaps they need to be securely anchored to alliance POSes (part of the POS revamp?), such that people need not fear their theft, and allowing a single character to own different capitals, so they can leave a ship, worry-free, and then board another ship appropriate to a current conflict in whatever role they're needed.
An idea worthy of discussion between the players and CCP? Like I said, I'm no expert on any of this. Just an idea that has been floating about ever since Soundwave made that comment during the New Eden Open broadcast. This could be the worst idea ever. Or it might have some merit. I dunno. You decide.
Anyhow, I'd like to read the discussion. As long as you don't call me a c*nt.
The last thing I want to see with a new set of capital ships is "Battleship 2.0."
ReplyDeleteDreadnoughts exist because structures needed to be ground down, and structures exist because players needed a mechanism to prevent their stations from being taken by a different time zone. These were the only capital mechanics that ever well and truly made sense to me. Carriers muddied the field, Supercarriers became abominations, and Titans were an abomination from their conception, of which the total count should never have exceeded four.
"More capitals" just doesn't sit well with me, at least not without giving serious thought into what good they would provide for the game. The potency of a capital ship is simply too great to justify through their inherent shininess.
The damage has already been done, and cannot be undone. So, my thinking, perhaps the best course of action is to create two, mostly separate, spaceship PvP games ... subcaps vs. subcaps and capitals vs. capitals.
DeleteI really enjoy these posts where you're not being a c*nt. :)
ReplyDeleteI mix it up. I have c*nt posts and not-c*nt posts. (Unlike a particular Minmatar blogger who tends to be a c*nt in every post.)
DeleteI don't know what you're talking about, Kuan Yida is a gentleman. Just because Shalee and him were close long before you showed up doesn't mean you gotta hate. :-P
DeleteThis new system would make sov much more harder to get for poor and low-SP alliances... It would mean that a 1000 men alliances with a low SP average cannot even fight for a couple of systems.
ReplyDeleteI want to see a dread shooting ranged smartbombs to help clear out fighters. Also: Best killmail-whoring ship ever.
ReplyDeleteFor someone who isn't a capital pilot, you sure want to buff the hell out of capital ships.
ReplyDeleteSorry poetic, but this post seems really poorly thought out. I'm not going to call you a c*nt, but I don't see how this starts or even adds to a conversation. You seem to suppose that capitals ate only used in sov warfare, they are used quite a lot in small gang warfare in wormholes (and some larger fights as well). There's also their use in low-sec, but this seems to have declined. The cap on damage from specific class of ship to structures is really half brained and has no logical way of being explained (not necessarily a reason to not do something but I'm not a fan of "because"). Overall, I'd say you were correct in your assessment on commenting on things that you know nothing about.
ReplyDeleteOk, so clueless non-capital player here. If capital weapons/reppers had very long cycle times and fired on the conclusion of the cycle (like armor reppers) but massive effect, would that help? In other words a capital could one-shot a cruiser if it was sitting still (i.e. no tracking problem) but the time between pushing the big red button and seeing the ship blow up would make it low efficiency for fleet combat. But that might be just fine for blowing up another capital or a structure which is going to take lots of capital-level hits to kill anyway.
ReplyDeleteWith the POS revamp, wasn't one idea getting rid of the shields and having ships dock up externally on the POS? Working my way from that, wouldn't it be interesting if your cap ship had to be undocked to put down a bridge?
ReplyDelete"By the same token, capital ships can't effectively provide logisitics (shield/armor remote repping) to subcaps" What?
ReplyDeleteCapitals and Supercapitals are both long time investments and ISK sinks for veterans. Due to current game mechanics you need at least 35 mil skillpoints to be a Supercarrier pilot and around 50 mil ago to be effective as Carrier or Dreadnought pilot. Titans start to make sense at 70 mil skillpoints. Keep in mind that this number only are correct if you are looking for a pure alt skillplan.
ReplyDeleteDuring an ops you are constantly changing your fitting to fill out the roles you currently need to fill during a battle. Triage, remote reps, capacitor warfare, EWAR, tackling and damage are common. This flexibility comes at high costs, usually 2 bil ISK for a fitted Carrier or Dreadnought and at least a second EvE account.
Expanding the amount of Capitals and their roles increases the already existing alt army and ISK sinks. I can't see a meaningful addition to Capitals besides maybe a true ship moving vessel that has a bigger ship maintenance array than a Supercapital.
Depending where you live and what alliance you are part of Capitals ops can be a daily business or a once a month event. I usually use my Capital or Supercapital every day and they are no I-WIN ships. If you ever sat in a Capital/Supercapital fleet unable to warp or jump for an hour due to a small dedicated enemy fleet you will know. ;-)
I'm.. confused by this post to say the least. It's honestly like reading something that somebody wrote in 2010.
ReplyDeleteYou should serious consider making a nullsec alt to see how things are done out here.
A lot of what your idea would do is to break the connection between capitals and subcapitals. You'd create two distinct ship types and one that you'd advance into for 'big warfare' instead of the current balance of everything mattering and everything effecting everything else.
ReplyDeleteSo subcaps would be unable to damage caps meaningfully? I'm pretty sure that 1 of the main "focus points" for tier-3 BCs was that a fleet of them, being small and fast, but packing HUGE DPS, could take down capitals.
ReplyDeleteAnyways, I'd be against that. Capitals should be able to destroy subcaps (albeit very inefficiently), and subcaps should be able to destroy capitals (again, very inefficiently). Therefore in order to :do it right, bro:, you need right tool for right job (subcaps to take out subcaps, capitals to take out capitals). But yes, a large enough blob with sufficient DPS should be able to (inefficiently) take down a capital or two.
Remember, 99% of EVE players are min-maxers. Present an expensive but efficient solution, and a cheaper, but much less efficient solution, if they can afford the expensive solution, they'll do it 99% of the time.
Okay, I like your posts most of the time Poetic, but here there's way too much things wrong :P
ReplyDeleteYou can't make caps and subcap fight without mixing themselves, that's the design of years ago, when caps could do anything, it has been rebalanced for a reason.
You don't need to make cap even more powerfull for structures, cause they already are... and if subcap can't take down a structure quickly, then there's a big issue for small alliances, or fight against a coalition with a high number of super available.
The big problem about taking sov is not the time to take 1 structure ; that's not much.
The problem is grinding a shitload of undefended structures again a again, and the time needed to travel between each others.
And for that, I wonder if asking dustbunnies to do this work would be better... like if no one defend something, dusties can destroy it on their own, without a need for spaceships. That would be pretty nice when they need to takes sov from an alliance who already failcascaded.