Tuesday, January 29, 2013

CSM8 Campaign Season - Ripard Teg and Carebear Creep

Now this isn't an anti-Ripard post. I still believe he has a lot to offer CCP if he were on the CSM. And I believe that he has a very excellent shot at making the CSM, very likely into an Iceland Seven slot.

I have some new concerns. I was planning on throwing my support behind him, giving him both my votes. Now, I'm not so sure.

I always knew he had some carebear tendencies. He has a long history of posts, some of which espouse those ideals. He's always been careful to veil those leanings in some level of murk. You knew those ideals were there, but you couldn't quite nail him on anything specific. If you tried, he had his outs ("oh, I was exaggerating", or "its your imagination", or "I was writing as Garth", or "I was just writing as the foil.")

The other day, though, he wrote something a tad more concrete than usual. He argued that ganking is not PvP, and he used a particular, famous mass miner gank as an example.. He didn't come right out and say it, but he hinted at the edges that, perhaps, he'd be quite happy with a highsec that catered only to consensual PvP.

The example he uses, is interesting, because his reasons for using it are flawed. The scenario is that a ganker, flying a smartbombing battleship, catches a couple dozen barges and exhumers all mining in a tight group. The ganker is able to take them all down (including pods) via smartbombing, all before CONCORD shows on the scene. Ripard argues that all the power lay in the hands of the ganker, that the miners were themselves powerless.

But were they?

Had they not been mining in such a tight formation, had the ranges between them been such that a smartbomb could pop only two or three of them at a time, would the ganker have bothered? Most likely not. To a highsec ganker, it is probably worth the loss of a smartbombing Armageddon if the exchange rate is the loss of two dozen or so mining ships. It would not have been enticing at all, not worth the loss of that battleship, had only two or three mining ships been within range of destruction. Thus, the power really lay with the miners. They could have prevented the massive loss they took that day. They made themselves a target, most of the fault lays at their feet.

To his credit, Ripard does recognize that the miners did make themselves a juicy target, but argues that the blame is still not with them (by drawing an unfortunate analogy, which isn't particularly applicable where highsec ganking is concerned.) Which, of course, makes no sense in a game like EVE. Conflict is the name of the game, so everyone must be vigilant to threats. At all times. If one insists on wearing a target, then one is going to be a target.

There are some that argue, because EVE is a sandbox, then it's wrong to call EVE a PvP game. Maybe they're right to some small degree, maybe that's too specific a definition. Maybe the correct way to describe EVE is that it is a game of conflict and market economy. The thing is, the market exists only because of conflict. Without conflict, the market withers and dies, the game withers and dies. The market is EVE, and conflict drives the market.

I've written in the past about carebear creep, using the analogy of the boiling frog. James 315 has written similarly, very recently.

What does carebear creep protect? The intelligent player? I would imagine there are thousands upon thousands of highsec players who do their thing successfully everyday, earning their ISK, without ever being faced with the highsec suicide gank. They play smart. They don't AFK. They don't bot. They keep tabs on local. They play with a certain level of paranoia. Occasionally, a few of them are caught by the gank, but it's an event out of the ordinary for them. They shrug it off, and move on. These people, you never hear from them, because they really have nothing at all to complain about. They understand the game, they play accordingly, they're successful because of it.

The dumb players. The ones who maybe bot. Who play AFK. Who never pay attention to local. Who fly with PLEX in their cargoholds. Who fly their mining armadas in ridiculously tight formations. Who load up frigates with billions in officer mods for transport. Those face-palm killmails we read about weekly (that Ripard sometimes highlights in his KotW posts.) Is carebear creep supposed to protect these players? These are the players who whine the loudest. These are the players who make the most racket on the forums. And, yet, they are probably the minority. There are probably far more intelligent players than there are dumb players. Far far more. Yet, it's the dumb players that carebear creep aims to protect.

And the safer highsec becomes, what then becomes of conflict? I'm not making any argument to get people out of highsec. Once a player is comfortably situated in highsec, always in highsec they'll be. There's no getting them out. But if the highsec reward ends up equating to (near-)zero risk, then the problem becomes migration. How do you keep people in lowsec and nullsec, where risk is (or can be) greater? The more people in highsec, the less conflict there is overall, which means the less people are able to sell, which means the markets stagnate, the game stagnates. The game needs risk, it needs risk everywhere, otherwise the health of the game suffers.

It's still murky where Ripard falls with respect to all of this. Is he championing further carebear creep? Or is he just fishing for more of the highsec vote? Hopefully in the coming days and weeks, he'll clear some of the fog, make his stance on the issue more crystal clear. I look forward to his Crossing Zebras interview, where I'm sure Xander Phoena will ferret out more details.

I'm still interested in supporting his campaign, throwing him my votes, but I have some concerns of my own. I hope those concerns will soon be answered.

If he does come down on the side of supporting increased carebear creep, he'll still make a great representative on a host of other issues. Unfortunately, carebear creep is too big an issue for me that I cannot in good conscience support any candidate that supports more of it.

Anyhow, I'll report further on Ripard after his Xander Phoena interview. (I'll be doing this for all the candidates after their Crossing Zebras interview.)

43 comments :

  1. Grath Telkin, famous PL pilot and sometime guest blogger over on Jester's Trek and Ripard Teg are two completely different people. Anyone who has spent literally five minutes on Kugu ever knows this ;)

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    1. I would rather be gut-stabbed than spend five minutes on Kugu.

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    2. garth != grath
      lrn2reed

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  2. I have always believed that instances such as Riptard's miner gank reflect a failure of the EVE community moreso than the game mechanics. Those miners were in a corp that did not teach them how to avoid high-sec ganking. Power in EVE isn't about game mechanics, skill points, or ISK. It's about getting information, knowing how to interpret it, and knowing how to use it. Being a newbie in EVE is hard because you aren't competent in any of those things. We all remember the frustration of setting up and reading our overview for the first time. We all remember the odd D-Scan tool and not really know what it was for or how to use it. We all remember our early failfits and bad fleet practices.

    Here's the interesting part, though. That newbie phase ended for most of us because other members of the community taught us how to interpret and use all the information at our disposal. The unfortunate miners in our example made so many bad decisions because nobody taught them not to, and maybe they didn't ask too many questions either.

    Even so, without this level of complexity EVE would be far poorer. Changing the game to make it "newbie friendly" would essentially remove the need for huge chunks of the community that have taken up the task of teaching newbies how to play. I think the constant practice of teaching new players the ropes is part of what keeps EVE alive because it forces vets to interact with newbs.

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    1. Actually, I agree with this quite a bit. The problem isn't making the game safer for people, but rather providing them with the tools (and the knowledge to use them) to ensure their own safety.

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  3. Turns out I was wrong and Garth and Grath, while sounding incredibly similar in tone of voice, are two different people. Two Step confirmed that I am an idiot.

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    1. Yeah, Garth is Ripard, Grath is a different duder.

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  4. I like the term carebear creep.

    My first concern is "is this a problem". Are newbies leaving the game due to griefing and bullying? I would guess that a lot of newbies leave due to complexity, and a lot will leave because eve honestly is such a different game from anything else, that they will just decide it's not for them. How many leave due to griefing and bullying?

    Maybe CCP has some numbers hiding somewhere which would indicate if this is actually a problem or not.

    Assuming the griefing/bullying is chasing away players before they get the necessary tools (skills, knowledge and attitude) to deal with it, then the first, non-controversial, step to solving this is to revisit the tutorials.

    There needs to be more information in the tutorials about how to survive. The tutorials don't in any way suggest that you should tank your mining ship. They never mention watching local or what you should look for in local. Being aligned out. Keep moving. Safe spots. The list goes on an on. Everyone knows what the newbies need to do to protect themselves. Everyone except the newbie. The tutorials need to be more about "how to survive in eve" and less about "this module does that".

    Creating a safe sandbox within the sandbox is a more controversial subject. I could see it working provided there was a mechanism where everyone had to leave the safe sandbox. Once you reach 2m skillpoints you stop training until you leave the safe sandbox, and once you leave there is no way back.

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  5. From what I read, he believes ganking miners isn't "real" pvp, it's more imposing your power on something that can't defend itself. He then, goes on to say that he believes ganking things that not only can't defend themselves, but also can't get themselves back on their feet is likely discouraging a lot of new players from playing the game, turning away a good amount of subscribers.

    Funny thing is, your "newbie space" is a good solution to what he was talking about.

    It's safe to say that you disagree with a guy without labeling him something he's not. Especially considering he lives in probably the most dangerous region in the game.

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  6. I will support Riptard's candidacy not because I suspect he might have "Carebear" tendencies but because he truly loves Eve Online. I’m convinced of this because I believe no one would spend his or her time writing the volume of insightful and educational posts as he does and not love the game. I want a candidate that will do what’s right for the game and not just what he or his constituents want. Eve is a sandbox so we need candidates that can speak to all levels of play – including carebear tendencies. Poetic, I also believe you would make a great candidate too. Keep up the good work.

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  7. While I see your point, and agree that ganking needs to stay in the game in all current manifestations, ganking is no more pvp than a drive-by is an honorable duel .

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  8. I would be more interested in seeing the New white paper, voting system and voting mechanism.

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  9. TO be fair, I think Ripard was pointing out the balance in power between veteran established players and newer high sec players is way out of whack, not between gankers and carebears.

    And he's right.

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  10. CCP would never dis-encouraging ganking in hs. Can new player enjoy EVE as much as old player does? Does small corp (full of new players, still working on getting their 1st cruisers by running lv2 missions) has any chance to survive certain griefing? Would someone in CSM 8 start out a campaign for a industry re-vamp? Why miner need to go afk with army of alts playing this game?

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  11. This very same sort of drama is playing itself out in Murrica right now. "How safe do we need to be, and what price do we have to pay to be that safe?" is the question dominating the current political landscape. After a recent peak in gun violence, we're faced with a dilemma: do we "make hisec safer" by banning guns, thus changing the "core culture" of Murrica completely? Or do we just keep going on as we've been going on?

    Basically, in EVE terms, on one side you have the carebears screaming for gun bans, because :safety: and "You don't need a semi-auto rifle as a private citizen." On the other hand, there's the NRA, saying they oppose any new gun legislation as the continuation of a "slippery slope" (or "boiling the frog", as you put it) towards a disarmed populace/"totally safe hisec", and asserting that we actually need more people wandering around with guns to make everyone safer, "An armed society is a polite society," they say.
    [Which is true -- look at how "polite" people got the first couple weeks after Retribution dropped, when anybody could shoot you for being a suspect, and people were still trying to figure out how to maneuver the mechanics to their advantage, but I digress.]

    In real life, the President and Senate have made it clear that "we WILL go through with meaningful gun legislation," and the NRA can either continue screaming and saying "No no no!!!" or it can come to the table and at least have a chance to voice its opinion before being ignored.

    I think Ripard is basically seeing the way the winds of change are blowing, both in the playerbase and in CCP, and whereas you are playing the role of the NRA, screaming about boiling frogs, slippery slopes, and carebear creep, he is at least willing to come to the table and talk, because in EVE, "meaningful gun legislation WILL go through," whether you're at the table or not.

    Maybe I'm entirely wrong about Ripard, but that's how I'm perceiving his apparent "attitude change".

    Also, not to self-plug too excessively but:
    http://carebearswithclaws.blogspot.com/2013/01/eveisreal-kawasaki-vs-semi.html <--- tl;dr as usual, but kinda goes along with what you're saying here, just with more psychobabble.
    and
    http://carebearswithclaws.blogspot.com/2013/01/what-do-private-capsuleers-need-assault.html <--- I was originally going to write something more "srs" about the parallels between the Gun Control issue in Murrica and the "highsec safety" issue in EVE. It was tl;dr, of course, but kinda uninteresting, so I re-did it in a semi-RP/real-life-crossover-parody thing that should have everyone cringing. :-D

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  12. I have been ganked in high sec exactly one time in 6 years of playing Eve. Because I did something stupid.

    I have also been the ganker exactly one time in that same time period. Because botters suck.

    I believe in the concept that "Eve is Real" and perhaps that is why I look upon players who make high sec ganking their profession with such disdain. The mechanics behind high sec ganking have no realism to it. There is no RL comparison for it.

    The only was I could describe this action to someone outside of Eve would be:

    So I was sitting in traffic at the US Border the other day and this random dude drives up in a pimped out Cadillac Escalade. He drives up to the guards at the crossing and out of nowhere this band of thugs comes up and starts gang raping the dude!

    "Well, it was all over in about 8 seconds. The random dude was OK physically but said he was never coming to Canada again and his ride was really messed up.

    The thugs had their Honda's confiscated and some merits taken off their licences. The border guards also told the thugs that if they don't stop doing this, eventually they'll be shot on site. That shouldn't be a big deal though, those guys all got people to handle the day to day stuff for them while they go take a course to clear the demerits.

    Now the dude in the Escalade probably had it coming, I mean he was talking on his cell phone while he was driving of all things. The best part though? After it was all over I walked up and grabbed the killer sound system out of the Escalade and nobody did a thing!"

    I understand that this is a game and Darwin is lead programmer but your counter argument that high sec ganking is a conflict driver is Bravo Sierra. Ganking in high sec is the WoW version of PVP. It's easy, has no real risk for the attacker and it even pays them in most instances. And I challenge you to find a player who's been ganked that then goes and actively seeks revenge. Conflict driver? Keep dreaming.

    Make ganking in high sec much harder for these "PVPers" and two things will happen. More new players will continue to play the game past the trial period, eventually discover that 0.0 pays a heck of a lot better and they will become the next generation of Eve players. The other thing that will happen is the current crop of high sec gankers will either go back to 0.0, roaming around and getting the gf's or they'll find something else to do that requires little skill and making their e-peen feel special.

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  13. It seems to me that the risk and rewards system is totally screwed up when it comes to the whole high-sec thing.

    I remember when I first started playing EVE for real, back in December of 2009. I remember having the idea in my head that if I wanted to make it rich in space and fatten that wallet, I had to go to null sec. That's where the money was. Better rats, better roids, everything was better out there, because it was more risky, right?

    I may have been totally dumb, then, having no idea what I was thinking, but that thought is what got me out of high sec after just two weeks of playing. I left for a low-sec corp who was moving to null, and I never looked back. High sec has always seemed a strange and crowded place to me, full of bright scary lights and hostiles on all sides.

    But I do not think newbies today feel the same way. It's like everyone knows that if you don't want to have ISK troubles, you just do your thing in high sec and watch as your wallet balance slowly increases over a long period of time. Perhaps it is because of this carebear creep you mention that has increased the revenues of those living in high, while null has stagnated over the past 3 and a half years due to lack of content.

    So what's our answer? Of course I'd love to see more opportunity for greater rewards in null, but how would that effect inflation? As a null citizen, I would have no problem drastically reducing the resources in high, so that those who really want to earn a profit are forced to venture into dangerous low and null. I mean, what if high sec systems only had two or three belts of veldspar each, and if you wanted any other minerals, it would take you a jump or two into dangerous space.

    But could you imagine the uproar for the eternal newbs you mention? It would be a literal cacophony of tears. Not that I mind, but I can't imagine anyone fishing for high sec votes would dare challenge this status-quo.

    Good catch, though.

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  14. What Doug said. I want EVE to be friendlier to new players, but I want that friendliness to come in the form of better preparation for, and introduction to, the game as is. Given the way mining barges crawl around it's not entirely surprising that they tend to be bunched up on the warp-in: the bookmark faraway rock, warp to nearby celestial, warp to bookmark at 10km trick doesn't occur to everyone (sometimes they warp to 0 on a large rock, and awaaaaaaaaay they go!), and the relatively large range of T2 strip miners makes it easy to just park your barge in one place for a while.

    The point being that the current mechanics make it very easy to behave badly, and there just aren't the resources in place to educate all the newbies well enough to counter the habits that the mechanics encourage. If I had to guess, a lot of the tears and rage over miner ganking happen because the miners feel like they're using the ships as intended by the performance of the hulls and modules, and they feel unjustly put upon for behaving the way the game encourages them to behave.

    That's one reason why I love the Venture. A mining rig that can do 1000m/s? Sign me up!

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  15. Would anyone be averse to granting a set amount of time, oh lets say for arguments sake, 2 million skill points as a "invulnerable" to pvp time? If they decide before then to PvP they have to hit a button (similar to the little green one we have now) and they go on a timer (lets say 30 minutes) and after that they can PvP. Also make it so if they enter low/null/wormholes it automatically turns off their protection. And once its off, its off for good. This way they have a window to learn the game, and if they don't realize by the time their protected status is up that Eve has bad people, well then this is probably not the game for them.

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  16. You're writing a lot of words bemoaning the gentrification of hi-sec, and identifying correctly that its safety leads to a depopulation of the other areas (as it befits a sandbox). But you are ignoring a major driver behind this trend: you, the PvPers yourself.

    If you shoot at carebears who don't want to be shot at, they move where its safer. If you follow the carebears and shoot them in their safer place, they use the only efficient weapon available to them: metagaming CCP. If EVE is a game of consequences, then a :totallysafehisec: is the consequence for treating carebears as pinatas.

    You ask "How do you keep people in lowsec and nullsec, where risk is (or can be) greater?", but you fail to see the answer because you don't like it. The answer is "Provide more tools for carebears to mitigate the risk, without forcing them to become PvPers." But this is exactly what you don't want, because short term it would still deprive you of easy targets. And if the Mining barge buff has demonstrated anything, it's that PvPers can be an as whiny bunch with entitlement issues as the carebears are.

    But think about it: the objective is not to eliminate risk, but mitigate it. Give the carebears more options in managing the amount of risk they are exposing themselves to. For example: a mining mechanic which does not require the miners to sit near motionless for hours in a belt or site, but yet requires them to be active in the system. That would make lo-sec mining much more palatable, just like carebears already take the risk of flying to POCOs.

    Of course some people will never leave hi-sec no matter what, and in a sandbox they shouldn't need to. But the crux really is that when it comes to stemming the migration into hisec, PvPers are their own worst enemy.

    tl;dr: If don't want a :totallysafehisec:, you need to argue for and with the carebears, not against them.

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    1. ^^ the "real" tl;dr to that: stop shooting carebears, even in low and null, or they'll MAKE you stop shooting them by removing that ability from the mechanics.

      Seems legit.

      In other news, this is sounding more and more like a typical day in Murrican politics. Can we please make EVE a little LESS real for a while? ;-)

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    2. Well, that's certainly the 'murrican either-A-or-B I-dont-want-to-think tl;dr . It's up to you if you want to subscribe it :)

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    3. Well, that IS basically what you said, only difference being that in real life, we can still choose to ignore the law, come what consequences may. Once CCP takes something out of the available mechanics, though, it's gone, really gone, for good.
      It's the difference of making a law prohibiting shooting people, and making it so guns won't physically ever fire except at inanimate objects.

      But that is pretty much what it is, because people AREN'T thinking, and are basically polarizing to two extremist views, just like *gasp* real life (especially in Murrica currently). Besides, you fundamentally have two completely diametrically opposed viewpoints that really have no room, as stated, for "give and take".

      Either way, when guns suddenly stop working in hisec, on anything that's not a red cross, they'll write some shitty 5-line Chronicle about how CONCORD figured out how to disable capsuleer weapons in hisec space, excepting for specific enemies flagged by CONCORD for elimination (red crosses). ;-)

      Don't be mad at me, Druur, I'm just making fun of people as we go down the road to :totallysafehisec:, I'm pretty sure I wrote that that was coming in :18months: about :12months: ago. 1 more expansion before I'm technically wrong. ;-)

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  17. PS: Another example for risk mitigation was introduced with Crimewatch: as a slightly-pvp inclined carebear, I can now attack suspicious people in lo-sec without incurring a kill right - proactive self-defense is now more of an option than it was before (sec status is still an issue though).

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  18. I don't think you are giving Jester enough credit, Poe. He isn't in any one "camp" and he certainly isn't fishing for carebear votes.

    Like you, he writes blog articles on issues that grab his attention. He throws out his "opinion of the moment", and engages in discussion via the comments on the posts. On a few issues, he may have a strong opinion, but in most cases, he is open to hearing what others have to say and isn't above and beyond changing his opinion, if proven to be way off track.

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    1. Hopefully that is the case. I suppose I'll find out when he answers directed questions on the issues during his interview.

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  19. With regards to ganking, I think the real question to be posed is whether or not high-sec ganking, as it stands today, is good for the game, at large. Sure, way back when, it was entertaining, but it has lost its appeal to most serious PVPers, in as much as it really isn't challenging.

    In fact, over the past couple of years, ganking has devolved into more a form of griefing than actual PVP. It discourages newer players from continuing to play - it certainly does not encourage them to step up to the plate and do something about it. Anyone who has been a ganker can tell you that there is no way to stop someone who really wants to gank you. As with the badly designed wardec system, the only guaranteed counter is to dock in station. This is a fault of the current game mechanics.

    Now, I'm not saying that high sec should be safe, but I do think that ganking should be a bit more challenging than picking a target, warping to zero, killing them in a few seconds, sacrificing your ship to CONCORD, then grinding off the sec status loss (or buy pirate tags - that suggestion really blows, btw), so that you can freely return to high sec and do it again and again, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. This is too much like carebear NPC mission running - perhaps we should just label ganking as being carebearish PVP? There just isn't any real risk for the ganker.

    If you want gank victims to stay in the game and step up to the plate, the game mechanics need some work to encourage them to do so. For example, I think that the bounty system should be redesigned to allow high sec players to actively track and hunt gankers, and attack them proactively. I also don't think you should ever be able to grind off sec status penalties - rather, if you want to be a pirate, then learn how to fly in high sec with -10 sec status. A true pirate should always have the odds stacked against him/her - beating those odds is part of the fun. I'd also like to see true combat haulers and combat mining ships, capable of actually fighting back, in a gang, against a ganker. Right now, most of these ships are tanked like wet paper bags and have less firepower than a noob frig. Perhaps the CONCORD response timers should actually be increased, and the haulers/mining ships be majorly buffed in tank/gank, so that real PVP battles can take place?

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  20. Saying Ripard is care bear anything just makes you look foolish. He is one of the best pilots in one of the best small gang pvp alliances in the game. Now guit fishing for hits to your blog and write something decent.

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    1. His proficiency as a PvP pilot has nothing at all to do with carebear tendencies in how he views highsec design.

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    2. Carebear tendencies? Really? Geez. Did you just announce for CSM8 or something?

      "Excuse me Mr Teg, would you like to respond to rumors of your carebear tendencies."

      Need Ripard to sign some sort of carebear hate-pledge to ease your mind?

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    3. Need Ripard to sign some sort of carebear hate-pledge to ease your mind?

      Yes. I say this as a carebear.

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  21. I think you're completely misrepresenting Jester's position. He links to a 2011 post where he explicitly says "...Want to hunt true newbies? Still want to suicide gank them? Fine. ..." Nowhere in his post is a suggestion or implication that highsec should be "mutual" combat only.

    All Jester says is that there's still a need to discuss increasing the penalties for ganking in high/lowsec.

    Your weasely "hinting" "perhaps" phrasing gives the game away, you're just writing fodder for the kneejerk dogpile of people who skimread the original after reading you or James 315's hurf blurf reactions.

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    1. In a tweet he suggests that he'd like to see it take 20 Catalysts to bring down an exhumer. That's so far tilted to the other side as to be an elimination of highsec PvP (I still consider ganking to be a subset of PvP.) Whereas he's not getting rid of ganking, he's making it so undesirable and difficult a task that it's eliminated by consequence.

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    2. You're still in hyperbole mode, did you forget about wardecs? Even if - and note again nobody is taking this position - suicide ganking is completely removed this will not equal "an elimination of highsec PvP". And don't try to say highsec wars lead to no kills, the legions of highsec so-called griefer corps puts paid to such a claim.

      As to the suggestion that 20 catalysts will somehow stop suicide ganking forever, and that this will ruin the game -- that's what we need to have a discussion about. It will certainly ruin suicide ganking as it currently exists, but there's nothing saying the existence and purpose of suicide ganking has to stay exactly as it is right now.

      But feel free to continue saying Ripard's position is not even worth engaging with beyond a unilateral dismissal.

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  22. I don't think Ripard is arguing that Highsec should be any more safe or dangerous than it already is. I think he is saying that combat in which the attacker is never at risk is mere ganking and that such actions aren't worthy PvP except in the barest sense.

    PvP implies combat between the two players is involved. And while there are multiple players involved when combat ships attack highsec miners or freighters, it usually doesn't qualify as combat any more than if I were to walk out with a shotgun and ambush my elderly neighbor while she was gardening.

    Recall that Rote, Ripard's alliance, is dedicated to PvP combat in which each side presents a credible threat to the other. His recent post is consistent with that point of view and therefore shouldn't surprise.

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  23. Mord has it right.

    And I don't have carebear tendencies. I was an out and out carebear for quite a while. I've mined in this game both solo and in large groups. I ran a L4 mission group in a high-sec training corp for more than a year. I was in a wormhole corp for six months. I ran incursions for a year. There are massive L4 mission guides and incursion guides on my blog. There are two posts last year describing in detail two of the worst scannable sites in null-sec and how I ran them. I was a member of the old NC, for Heaven's sake. ;-)

    But I have "carebear tendencies"? That's the best you could come up with? Someone obviously hasn't been paying attention. ;-)

    On the other hand, I ALSO bought and fitted out five Hurricanes (this was pre-Tornado) specifically to suicide gank Hulks and went out looking for Hulks to shoot at. All five Canes died, and I ended up with three Hulk kills. I just decided after it was over that this play style isn't for me. As Mord points out, I like targets that shoot back.

    I see value in every way of playing this game and think there's room for everybody. Sue me. Bearing's not how I play the game today, but I don't see anything inherently wrong with those who do. For the rest, see my post today.

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  24. Sorry Poe, I think you missed the point.

    Ripard is not suggesting that ganking be nerfed or that highsec should become a carebear paradise. He is simply challenging us to ask the question about consequences.

    For a suicide ganker or an awoxer, the consequences are pretty much static. Loss of ships and/or reputation. Potential loss of sec status.

    The suicide ganking metagame has long been able to overcome the inconvenience of these consequences and as such are able to operate with relative impunity and no real consequences.

    The victims may not be so lucky. In a small number of cases the victims may learn to fight back and may learn to enjoy pvp and go on to other things. This was my own personal experience. But the majority of my old corp mates who were relatively new players quit the game.

    So on one hand you have at best measurable consequences and at worst no consequences at all for the suicide ganker, and on the other you have a game ending consequence for the ganked and a loss of potential income for CCP on the other.

    It is not "creeping carebearism" to suggest that perhaps it is time for the consequence side of the equation to be balanced. Most of the 'nerfs' to highsec activity have been based on limiting the action or effectiveness, but creative players have worked around these. By balancing the consequence you do not restrict freedom but you do square the ledger somewhat.

    I do not believe that highsec should be entirely safe or made safer. Right now it is for all intents and purposes entirely safe for the ganker...there is a fundimental imbalance at play here.

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    1. Why ask the question at all, if you don't want something to change with respect to highsec PvP.

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  25. "Mord has it right." - Jester

    " I think he is saying that combat in which the attacker is never at risk is mere ganking and that such actions aren't worthy PvP except in the barest sense. " - Mord

    I.e. Jester has admitted that when he claimed on his blog that his post about ganking not being pvp wasn't his opinion, but merely a quote, that he was lying through his teeth, that he does in fact hold the opinion that ganking is not pvp and that that blog post was in fact his opinion.

    I can't support anyone for CSM who is this dishonest on his blog, and who wants to neuter highsec as he does--which is a shame, because he writes a ton of thoughtful stuff, and a month ago I would have voted for him.

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    1. Wow, you are an idiot. Not even sure where to start.

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    2. ' "You're an idiot"

      *stands there gaping and drooling like an idiot, unable to write anything meaningful to support this highly original put-down*

      *forgets his own name, leaves this important message under "anonymous".'

      Thanks for the thought.

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  26. There is nothing miners can actually DO, short of stopping mining, in order to prevent being ganked while mining in hisec. So this is ultimately a gameplay problem. Everybody on the pro-ganker side of the issue says that the answer must be "emergent," and the only reason why miners haven't come up with it yet is because they're stupid, or they're carebears, or whatever else. But I think we need to begin to consider the possibility that there's more room for "emergence" on one side than on the other. If anybody wants to describe exactly what it is that miners can do, short of no longer engaging in their chosen profession, I'm all ears.

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  27. I am an out and out carebear, but I don't want hisec to be completely safe, I want it to be realistically safe ("Eve is real" comes to mind). The current game mechanics just do not give a sensible outcome when criminals can go on commmitting crime after crime and the same predictable penalty is given. Just as in real life the authorities would take action if a gang declared ownership of New York city, started extorting money from the inhabitants and shooting any that refused to pay, there should be mechanisms that apply in game for space controlled by the NPC empires. It is also not realistic that criminals always get caught. What is needed is some rethinking of the risk mechanics - I think it is less certainty and more and escalating consequences. Hisec should be mostly safe - like living in New York (expect to get mugged if you flash to much bling but you may be victim of crime from reprobates even if you take precautions); low sec like the wild west with much more limited authority and nul sec, well that's Somalia where warlords rule.

    Escalting consequences should ensure deterrence works most of the time, while taxes should be higher in NPC empire. Concord is also unrealistic.

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