Problem here though is that these static DED sites were being used by various lowsec pirate groups as locations for controlled battles. They were size restricted, thus specific fights in specific hulls could be sought out. You could stage frigate fights without worrying about cruisers and battlecruisers being dropped on top of you.
Sugar Kyle wrote about this very issue back when the Retribution patch notes were released. If it wasn't for her and a bunch of pirates complaining very loudly on the forums, CCP likely would not have looked deeper into the issue.
CCP Fozzie, a dude so newly removed from being a PvP player that he still very much cares about PvP issues, decided to bring this lowsec loss to the attention of those people that could deal with it. In particular, CCP Bettik. Today Fozzie wrote a forum post, detailing a possible solution for lowsec pirates, asking for their feedback. The solution isn't a "slam dunk it's gonna get done," but I like to think that when CCP takes the time to lay out a public design solution to a problem, it's a good bet that, as long as players don't scream that they hate it, it's something that has an 80+% chance of getting done.
Which brings us to the current CSM. Of course, they're all over Twitter and the forums, right now, taking credit for this "possible" change. Hyping up their push with CCP to get things done, to get pirates back their PvP havens. The thing is, though, they didn't catch the problem to begin with. They failed to realize that removing DED 1/10 and 2/10 sites was even an issue (other than to solve exploration site farming.)
In a recent post of mine, I asked folks if they were happy with who they voted for last March. A comment of mine, and a couple other comments focused on Hans Jagerblitzen. I wrote honestly. I voted for Hans. I do not think I wasted a vote. The faction warfare we have now, is basically his vision. He worked hard to see that vision realized. The system is not perfect, but it's better than what faction warfarers had pre-Inferno, and it's far better than what they had post-Inferno. The Retribution modifications work reasonably well, and Hans should be proud of his accomplishment.
That said, I do not think Hans should run for CSM8. I simply do not think he brings anything to the table beyond a deep knowledge and passion for faction warfare. A number of people disagree with me, they feel that Hans would continue to make a great lowsec and pirate representative.
Hans is not a pirate. Not by a longshot. Simply having a secstatus below -5.0 does not make one a pirate. I have a -9.3 secstatus. I would not consider myself a pirate. I'm simply a faction warfare dude that shoots neutrals. Quite a lot. That's all Hans is. A faction warfarer that'll fire upon anything not blue, not green and not purple.
Which is why he didn't catch the DED 1/10 and 2/10 problem. He didn't recognize what pirates would be losing with the removal of those sites. Because he is not a pirate. He's not familiar with their concerns. If he were a pirate, familiar with their gameplay, he would have recognized what removing static DED sites would mean for lowsec PvP. He would have asked for, demanded, course correction back when the CSM were presented with the upcoming change, when there was still time alter, massage, the development criteria.
As it stands, he and other CSMers railed against those changes after the fact. After the patch notes were released. After the release of Retribution. Only when the problem was brought to their attention by the players. And even then, Fozzie too saw the complaints on the forums, and commented on them in early December. He didn't need the CSM to draw his attention to the issue. Fozzie saw it himself.
Whereas the CSM will claim this a victory, it was really their failure that we're at a point where CCP even has to patch the issue, to fix it, to solve it. If the CSM had a proper lowsec/piracy candidate, this would have been caught well before Retribution was released. An appropriate lowsec/piracy CSM member would have immediately known what ramifications there would be to removing those static sites from lowsec.
So, Hans did good work in 2012. He worked hard. But being a hard worker does not bequeath anyone with knowledge outside their strength and base. Hans' time is over. Faction warfare is no longer on the table for development next year. That was his only strength, his base, the thing he brought to the party. If lowsec residents, if pirates, want representation come CSM8, they best be searching for someone who recognizes more about lowsec than just faction warfare.
I agree that Hans area of expertise is definitely limited which is a real shame as it would great to have a version of him for every major aspect of the game, as it stands he has no place in the next csm unless they do the right thing and split the csm into sections, one for what, one for few ect ext.
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure that we have said several times that we weren't told about the DED site removals until we saw the patch notes. As soon as we saw that, Hans (and other people) asked CCP why they were removed. If that forum thread you linked hadn't existed, Fozzie's post probably would have been in the CSM forum thread about this.
ReplyDeleteso he gets feedback, and takes action. I think it's unreasonable to expect him to know everything, at all times. I doubt you could put anyone in there who is going to intuitively know how each minutae works without feedback. You're asking a lot of a CSM, basically a part time game job
ReplyDeleteAsserting that Hans' contributions during CSM7 were limited to FW is simply wrong. He was one of the workhorses of CSM7, and provided valuable insights in a broad variety of areas. In the current draft of the summit minutes, he is directly quoted 56 times (just barely missing being the most quoted), and provided input 182 times (tied for #2).
ReplyDeleteWhile it is good to have people with specific expertise (relevant to what CCP plans to do -- but keep in mind this changes every other tuesday) on the CSM, it is not a pre-requisite for being effective. What counts more than anything is the willingness to work hard, listen carefully, and when needed, ask uncomfortable questions.
"...and when needed, ask uncomfortable questions."
DeleteLiterally just had Red Bull go tearing out my nose. Don't drink while reading comments, kids, shit is dangerous.
Clarence would make a great CSM: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2A194yTWoQ
DeletePoe for CSM8
ReplyDeleteThis is something that I have long told people who claim Hans to be a 'lowsec' CSM member. He isn't. He's a faction warfare CSM member. As a FW CSM, he no doubt has done a great bit to get FW set on the right path. But as you say, Poetic, I don't feel that a second run from him would do anyone much good. There's only so much more to be done with FW.
ReplyDeleteThe real question at hand is whether the EVE community *wants* a lowsec representative. It doesn't really appear that way. Most people are happy with the Crimewatch changes and Bounty Hunting, going so far as to call Retribution the greatest pirate expansion to date. If you think about it, it is both true and sad.
I honestly don't believe there is any real desire among pirates to enact great change to lowsec. Those hardy few that are left are used to the way things are, and are more wary of CCP screwing it up than they are optimistic that their preferred playstyle could see massive gains.
And why would Hans, who's evidently a FW expert, know anything about nor care about pirates and their ways?
ReplyDeleteAnd, did you bring this to Hans's attention when it was first put forth by CCP? If not then you're part of the problem.
And like Toby Collins says, unless you reserve CSM spots for different gameplay styles, you're gonna make due with whom you have.
Kelmurdoch
Test Alliance
you love hans
ReplyDeleteSo maybe it's time that the CSM positions get broken down into representation by population. I have no idea what those numbers would be. Granted high sec would have a lot more reps, but they have a higher population. Not really the best break down for representation, since many of the high sec players are alts of players in other areas.
ReplyDeleteOr you could break it up by play styles which would make sense. A rep from the incursion community a rep from FW and so on and so forth.
Regardless of what is being put forth for an upcoming expansion each type of play style should be represented since sometimes what might seem like a good idea for many play styles could really have and adverse affect on another, sometimes destroying it all together.
Whenever the CSM rails about a change, after the fact, all they are doing is proving how much of a failure they truly are.
ReplyDeleteAs a group, they just don't have the necessary breadth of experience in the game to catch critical issues, outside of alliance PVP.
This nonsense with the low-sec static DED sites is a good example; FW plex farming was even a better example. In both cases, players with experience in these areas of gameplay brought up the issues on the forums, tried to draw CCP's attention to the matter before changes went live on Tranquility, and yet no one in the CSM raised a flag or made even a peep.
The fact that lowsec pirates even complained about this tells us everything we need to know about their utter hypocrisy. They live in lowsec. They are pirates. And yet, they're afraid of being hot-dropped by larger ships? Aren't these basically the same people we hear over and over again, complaining about hisec being made "too safe"? Just goes to show you that, when it comes to PvP-oriented types, the ones who make these sorts of arguments at least, what's good for the goose is never good for the gander. And what makes it even sadder is the servility with which CCP has addressed their argument.
ReplyDeleteIt has nothing to do with being hot dropped by larger ships. Larger ships are often at a disadvantage when coming into the complex because they can not warp in at a distance to snipe and get frig blobbed easily.
DeleteMost of the PvP happened outside of the site not inside of the site. The nature of it developed a pull for frigates. There was nothing safe about the complexes. What was pointed out was that farming was easy to handle if someone decided to just sit in a plex.
But, because people might want to run it, they brought a ship that could make it through the gate. This promoted the small ships more so then many of the battles that often occur in low sec due to gate and station guns.
I'm not sure where you pull 'safety from being dropped' out of the argument other then a misunderstanding over the enthusiasm people have shown for frigates.
Added: Most of the high sec is to safe comments come from null sec. Pirates tend to run around and kill things anyway and listen to people complain on the forums that we can even get into high sec and low sec and that we should be evicted to NPC null forever for pewing in high sec at all.
Delete