Wednesday, January 23, 2013

Test Alliance vs. Goonswarm - The Taming of Montolio

So that you know my take on this immediately, I argue that Montolio is the only sane person in this ended almost-conflict (even as people try to paint him otherwise), and I argue that Goonswarm has now become everything it once despised.

I've written previously of the potential conflict between Test Alliance and Goonswarm Federation. This may be the last post I write on the subject. Sadly.

The Mittani has used his skills at propaganda to masterfully paint Montolio, the CEO of Test Alliance, as a madman, an insane leader bent on perpetuating a pointless and wholly damaging war. Nothing good can from this war, he argues, it will destroy friendships.

Yet, that seems like weak reasoning. Goonswarm has past bitter enemies in their Clusterfuck Coalition [CFC]. Test Alliance has past enemies in their Honey-Badger Coalition [HBC]. It would seem that war does not get in the way of out-of-game friendships. It seems that in-game conflict is kept wholly in context, and that laughs and beers can be happily shared afterwards.

The agitprop machine, themittani.com used to full effect, and some diplo-mancy among economic cohorts, with this the almost-conflict winds down.

Shadoo came to the rescue and talked the crazy man from the ledge. That is, of course, how The Mittani and Shadoo (of Pandemic Legion) characterize the end of the crisis. They argue that nobody wants war, because EVE Online's sovereignty mechanics are so terrible. It is probably true that EVE's sov mechanics are terrible, but that didn't stop three or four Goonswarm initiated wars during 2012.

The only reason why this war will not happen is because of technetium. The Mittani can try to spin it any way he wants. As crappy as the sovereignty mechanics in EVE Online may be, it certainly did not stop The Mittani from prosecuting several wars to capture more of New Eden's technetium supply. And at least one war to protect the tech cartel he helped create.

Shadoo's conversation with Montolio? It probably went something like this: "This war threatens our technetium moons. If that happens, Test will stand alone. If that happens, Pandemic Legion will side with the CFC. The Honey-Badger Coalition exists at our whim, not Test's."

What did Shadoo promise in return? Staged wars. Thunderdomes. Probably more miner and freighter ganking. Maybe a Jita Burns II. Engagements with rules. Conflict without meaning. And consensual warfare, the sort of thing Goonswarm used to cringe at, the sort of thing they used to mock.

Everything points towards technetium. Goonswarm and the CFC hold most of it. They do not want war. Pandemic Legion holds many moons of their own. They do not want war. Executive Outcomes, ally to both the HBC and CFC, holds technetium moons, they are willing to vacate HBC space so that their CFC holdings remain secure. They do not want war. The parties with the most to lose economically are the parties fighting hardest to avoid conflict.

Many point to the fact that Test is no match for the might of the CFC (including Pandemic Legion, because it's a given that PL would vacate the HBC were war to break out.) It is true that, if the war contains itself to only these parties, Test Alliance is very likely outmatched. But Goonswarm has many enemies. And if all-out war were to occur, many of those old enemies would recognize an opportunity. Nulli Secunda. Triple-A. Solar Fleet. CFC and friends would potentially face a many-fronts war. In that event, a Goonswarm victory is not assured. Goonswarm maintaining their chokehold on technetium would be severely threatened.

Mittens would have everyone believe, CCP included, that wars are not initiated for economic reasons, but for rage and hatred alone. Yet, what war in the last two years has Goonswarm not initiated for economic reasons? The only wars, in the past year, that were prosecuted because of an actual dislike and/or rage were between parties that did not include Goonswarm. Solar Fleet and Red Alliance. Any war in the new, nerfed drone regions could hardly be said to be for economic reasons. And Test Alliance versus Against All Authorities. Any war in the south, again, it is difficult to make an argument for the economics.

So, sure. Some wars are initiated due to rage and hatred. That's an argument The Mittani can make. Though it is not an argument he can make with respect to Goonswarm Federation. Goonswarm no longer does anything unless it is economically motivated. (Hopefully, CCP Soundwave can remove his old Goonswarm slippers long enough to recognize a disingenuous argument when he's presented with one by his old alliance.)

So, the likelihood of a new Great War breaking out is getting slimmer by the day. Technetium would be at risk, and protecting tech is a strong conflict-avoidance motivator.

When Montolio despondently wrote:
I concede ... It isn't what I want, but it is what you want. I want war. I want gigantic fucking battles. I want to crash nodes because people are so fucking interested in this shitty game.
He showed us that he understands this game. That he understands what drives the grunts in their alliance and corporate patriotism. Conflict is what EVE Online is about. Unfortunately, among the great leaders of our time, it's only Montolio who understands that any longer. Perhaps it's because he has no great economic engine to protect, that he sees war as beneficial. Perhaps if he were in The Mittani's shoes, he too would start drifting towards carebearism. We can guess, but we can never know for sure. Either way, it is a great shame that he's been so expertly marginalized.

Montolio is, perhaps, EVE's last great "gives no fucks" leader. People should consider rallying to his cause, rather than just swallowing the crazy man narrative that The Mittani has created for you all.

50 comments:

  1. Agreeing with Poetic Stanziel.
    I should get my head checked :P

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  2. Its totally economic, not the fact that starting a horrific sov war that the in the "best" case scenario the "winner" gets to grind through 8 or 9 regions full of towers and timers uncontested. There aren't mythical "goodfites" coming out of sov warfare; the only people benefiting from a hellgrind sov war is bloggers , shared enemies and EveO posters..

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    1. The point is this wouldn't be grinding through regions uncontested. I helped with Esoteria and that was pretty horrible, true. But this would be massive fleets v massive fleets with small gangs spiralling off the main fights in every direction. Eve at its best.

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    2. Assuming Shadoo works his magic, we'll get those fleet fights without the horrible baggage that sov warfare brings. Its not like giant numbers are sustainable even during sov warfare; just the opening weeks and key staging systems.

      Plus we know some autistic director/ceo in one of the blocs is going to get his mining titan killed and escalate this shit in a month or two.

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    3. I don't know where Shadoo will conjure this from. There's no one who will undock against PL except SOLAR on home turf (and they lose every fight) who isn't blue to PL.

      Still I have a lot of respect for Shadoo and he may surprise us. Or null may be dead by summer.

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  3. As a TEST member I can say that just about 90% of the TEST playerbase has Monty's back and were willing to follow him into the next epic war. From what I've gathered though TEST leadership is still feeling the burnout from conquering 5+ regions over the last year, with PL being in that same boat. If war did happen though I'd see PL siding with the HBC though, not the CFC. Sure much of their income stems from tech, but that's most of TEST's finances too. PL would likely abandon their tech moons just as easily as TEST would abandon theirs.

    It really is the sov war mechanics, they're more of a nightmare for leadership than line members though and they're the ones who made the call this time. Stay tuned though, this isn't the last time tensions will run high. Mittens basically insulted Montolio in his CEO update and many in TEST are pissed. I give it 3 months before we start fighting.

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  4. Best post you have written pretty much every word here is perfect and I feel sorry for people swallowing the sov grind story. What null needs is more leaders with balls to break the blue blob and fix null themselves, this can only happen with a real war. Such a wasted oppurtunity

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    1. Have you ever experienced sov warfare? Probably not judging by the comment. It sucks for line members, it sucks for logistics members and it sucks for leadership. The current sov mechanics are so horrifically unfun. I want to shoot TEST as much as anyone, but I'm not playing hurry up and wait for Caps to do their thing reinforcing/repairing everything. If "good fites" were so attainable with sov warfare, why the fuck do I keep burning out mid sov grind?

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  5. Yeah, YOU go shoot a couple hundred POS's and stations, I'm good thanks. All anyone in TEST wants was interesting fights against an opponent that could fight back. If Shadoo's war-game is an adequate solution, it's cool by me. It's going to be an attempt to create an artificial sov system; one that isn't restricted by CCP's idiotic sov mechanics.

    So much fucking tinfoil in this uninformed, un-involved article and these dumbass comments. Evoke and NCdot actively fought against the CFC *and the CFC didn't touch their tech moons*. It was only AFTER NCdot attacked an SMA (or FCON, one of the branch residents) Tech moons after Black Legion reinforced it did the CFC actually start on the tech moons.

    Additionally TEST has about 20 Tech moons in the middle of CFC space that, should we enter a sov war, would probably be lost.

    After Esoteria no one wants to do anything with sov. If you had been there, if you had talked to people who had been there, you would understand that. But you, weren't, and you don't. So keep talking about things you don't know anything about.

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  6. I love how everyone is so fit to bang the drums of war when it's someone else that has to stick his ass out in the wind. The same bystanders then tell us what Eve "is all about," and toss around petty invectives that contain the word "-bear."

    This precious little narrative that there was no EPIC CONFLICT because nothing E~X~P~L~O~D~E~D is just so dopey, I can't deal with it.

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  7. hear hear.

    (Not that I'd love to see them bleed each other dry, no not that at all.)

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  8. What's really sad is how quickly "line members" swallowed this BS. Both Testies and CFCs I know went from "War! War! War!" to "We didn't want war anyways becuz CCP SUX!" in one day. They were played for fools.

    I've made the argument again and again that there CAN be epic war without total conquest. Test could have engaged in limited conflict and gone after one area of space, some tech moons, or aimed to crush the CFC cap fleet or something.

    The Mittani's plan for OTEC and monoploy has led players to think that the only option for war is complete domination of whole regions. This is a false dichotomy.

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  9. Yo Poe, fuck this shit, try grinding regions. Its terrible as fuck. Game mechanics around sov stopped this war. Not moons.

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    1. The Mittani's plan for OTEC and monoploy has led players to think that the only option for war is complete domination of whole regions. This is a false dichotomy.

      I can repeat this again if you'd like.

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  10. Please stop making these posts, you have no idea what you're talking about, so why comment? The fact you need to make up things said "It probably went like [insert strawman argument]" is pretty damning that an article like this shouldn't exist, no?

    "I know the reason is tech because the reason is tech and here are some made up things about why I am right" is an awful post.

    99.9999999% of the reason is that FIGHTING THE WAR would be absolutely awful.

    There are 2 groups of people who want it to happen:
    a) Our enemies, as it weakens both sides a critical amount
    b) Shit-lords who think the lack of a war is evidence of botting, RMT, or whatever special-snowflake reason they come up with as to why "nullsec is bad" to fit their narrative.

    There's 300billion hitpoints (before resists) of infrastructure between TEST and GSF. A fleet pushing 1,000,000dps (absurdly high figure) shooting 12 hours a day would get through that in ~1month. Add in the hours and hours of all the hundreds of reasons you're not applying 1milDPS to a structure, and you get an insanity in front of you. This is /before/ you even put up your own. Fun times.

    Your post is absurd on the face of it and if you knew what you were talking about you'd not have made it.

    There's also the central point you make - "Goonswarm no longer does anything unless it is economically motivated" - and I don't even know where to go on this. Do you realise that 95% (or more) of everything done is NOT a strat OP? That those strat OPs aren't mandatory, and a small percentage of active players go on them? It's really, really silly to make sweeping comments on something that you don't know anything about - why don't you try something crazy, like speak to a single person involved?

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    1. Speak to a single person involved? How would your explanation differ from the party line espoused in several different posts on themittani.com?

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    2. You call it a 'party line' when it's the expressed opinion of most people who know what it entails, and has been shouted down as an idea because "the grind would be awful" for days and days now.

      Even in the comments of your last piece on this, you were told it wouldn't happen because sov was broken - and now you turn around and state "look, NOW they're saying it's because of sov!" in this post. What the actual fuck, dude?

      I don't know what motivates you to comment and create a completely new narrative (based on no evidence, and conjecture based on assumptions) but it would be hilarious to edit this post with all the [citation needed] tags it would need.

      n.b. - you accuse The Mittani of 'propaganda' but there are logs that show Montolio out to be everything he says he is, and he hasn't tried to claim they're fake because thelogsshowsomething~.

      n.b.b. - you've not spoken on the other points I raised as to why this article is weak hyperbole, desperately hunting for hits on today's hot-button topic.

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    3. So, you're best excuse for carebearing is that the CFC is to large to fail?

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    4. It's an opinion piece, Mr. Khan. You read it, you make up your own mind. I don't have to defend an opinion. I son't have much vested in any of this other than it would be fun to spectate.

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    5. If you want your opinion taken seriously, of course you do.

      And you agree with me, because otherwise you wouldn't have laid down and argument complete with evidence instead of just a one line "The war got stopped because of Tech."



      Have you actually done much Sov grinding?
      For reference, a 1m DPS fleet would be: a 1,300 man Hellcat fleet (plus Logi/Support, so probably better than 1,500 people), a 91 man Moros fleet (plus support), or an 83 man Erebus fleet. That's not something anyone can field 24/7 for a Month (not that you can actually have structures to grind 24/7). That's the prize for "winning".

      As for your notion of "well, not all wars have to be region conquering final wars," that's true. But what makes the not-region conquering wars any different from the wargames being planned (other than, I suspect, the wargames will have less structure EHP)?

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    6. The directorate keep trotting out this sov grind/no gudfites reasoning, based on their fights through 2012. The war is not HBC vs. -A-. Or CFC vs. Raiden. It's HBC vs. CFC. Do you think either are going to roll up, retreat into Venal/Stain/Curse? There will (or would have been) tooth and nail fights over systems. This is what strikes me as so disingenuous about many of the arguments being made by PL/CFC, they damned well know there would be gudfites and tonnes of them. Neither side is/was going to roll over to the other.

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    7. When has the CFC war machine (I can't speak all that well to the HBC) ever given massive amounts of "gudfites"? Its grind structures & punt until their grunts stop logging in.

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    8. "As for your notion of "well, not all wars have to be region conquering final wars," that's true. But what makes the not-region conquering wars any different from the wargames being planned (other than, I suspect, the wargames will have less structure EHP)?"

      that they are "real".

      In my opinion 0.0 is desperately in need of some good old-fashioned hatred to spice things up a bit.

      Hating BoB created 5 years worth of 0.0 content and it was great because that hatred was personal - BoB did seriously claim that goons are bad people irl and goons hated BoB (both leadership and rank-and-file!) for that with a passion.

      It was not just a clash of ideologies or in-game characters, it was "EVE is real" at its best.

      The Mittani ended this era of 0.0 warfare - whereas others like Remnedial or karttoon were not afraid of rash decisions and strong emotions, he plays with cool deliberation and plays to win.

      As others learned and adapted EVE arrived at the bloodless 0.0 we have today - One day you call your enemies shit, the next day you recruit them into your own ranks. F*cking ISRAD being blue to Goonswarm Federation (during the delve war). Hugs & kisses everywhere.

      The promise of a Great War is that it would be absolutely awful for both sides.
      And that by being awful and by turning former friends against each other it might just create enough "real" hatred between both sides to fuel another 5 years of 0.0 conflict.
      The sort of hatred that simply doesn't allow you to turn your coat inside out and cooperate with your former enemies.
      The sort of hatred that makes you think that your enemies are bad human beings.

      That's what 0.0 needs in my opinion and that's something war games can never provide.

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    9. There's more than one reason to not do this war. Sob grind is one of them, but you touch on the other here.

      "There will (or would have been) tooth and nail fights over systems"

      This sounds true on the face of it, but let me explain why it isn't.

      Lets say, TEST and GSF have 100 "supers" each. Lets say our immediate enemies have 60 "supers" between them - numbers are fictional, but I think this is roughly an accurate spit-ball figure for a ratio.
      Sov wars are decided by supers, they just are. If you can't field them, you can't hold your shit.
      What then happens in a 'pitched battle', where both side field them? They go down. Repeat this enough times and, win or lose, both sides now have a vastly diminished "super" fleet. It takes a month to re-build a super, so you can have all the ISK in new-eden and still be waiting on Titan/mothership babies (not to mention building them at all could become a hilarious challenge).
      You could win this war with 75% efficiency (unlikely) and all that would happen is everyone else gangbangs you whilst you sit on your dick and lose everything. Bloggers would love this, because they can sit back and make allegories to all the real-world empires who had their downfall in over-expanding.
      And, ultimately, for what? We don't want TEST's space, they don't want ours. Why, on earth, would two large entities kill each other over nothing?

      So, this wouldn't happen because it's silly - so what actually happens in these wars is the losing side stops fielding supers, essentially forfeiting the fight at an early stage, leading to a massive sov grind (see previous post as to why that's awful). Cue the winning side yammering at the other to man up and undock, and yabba yabba we've been here before.

      This war wouldn't bring content to line members, it would remove it.

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    10. Poe, and these wargames are (I presume) going to be designed to provide those gudfights without the 300 BILLION HP (plus resists) worth of Sov grinding for the victors.

      Florestan, I agree, nullsec needs some good old fasioned hateorade. Test v Goons just isn't where that's at. Test and Goons like each other. But plenty of other people hate both Test and Goons. Why don't they step up and fight? Why wait for manufactured drama to create a manufactured war when there are more than enough people who hate Goons/Test (CFC/HBC) to put together a very large coalition?

      Delete
  11. It's not just the structure HP to grind through, or the stupid 5 round defense mechanics, or the loss of income; tech, renter or otherwise. Wars in EVE are massive fucking effort. Logistics, scouting, importing, fuel caches, diplomacy, command heirarchy and moving thousands or people worth of shit long distances.

    On top of that many people in the CFC and HBC are friends. EVE wars are not good for continuation of friendships. There's far too much at stake, and way too much effort required to prosecute a war like this on such terrible pretense.

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    1. EVE is a game, moron. Some of my best in-game friends have been on opposite sides of many wars, over the years. I even lost my first SC to a group of friends in PL (bastards... lol).

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  12. Or perhaps Montolio having an internally divided coalition tried the oldest trick in the book, and created an external enemy where there was non before in order to unify the home front (and divert the attention away from failing leadership).

    And back-pedalled when he realised PL might not come in on his side hoping he'd done enough already by arraying the coalitions against each other even if there's no actual war, but he can now play the sentiments hopefully keeping attention away from the troubles at home.

    But this ofc is utter speculation from a total outsider, much like your post above.

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    1. I find all these speculations far more entertaining than the CFC/HBC drama itself.

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  13. Who said that in that war there would be a need for that much sov grinding.

    - TEST takes few systems to be stage systems.
    - From there TEST attacks Tech moons
    - TEST go for bears around Goonie space

    Results:
    - Low morale
    - No more income
    - Huge sov bills
    - Goons break down eventually

    And in middle lot of fun fights and no much of sov grind.

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  14. Montolio is a pussy for backing down. If he really the "gives no fucks" leader you want to make him out to be, he'd launch the damn war unilaterally and take whomever wants to join him along for the ride. It doesn't matter if we are outnumbered or not - the whole point of the game is to have fun, blow things up and get blown up, not sit around while a few asshats play political and economic metagames.

    Protecting moons and sov is boring as shit. There are many of us who'd rather go down in a blaze of glory than sit around for another year, doing nothing but "staged" battles (might as well join RvB).

    Excuse me, but I've got to go do some mission running and mining now, since there is no war....

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    1. I have to agree with the "boring as shit" comment. The alliance leaders might all be happy with where they are and playing their OTEC games and holding hands, but the rest of us are getting pretty damn bored waiting for things to really explode.

      What's the point of being in a big alliance in null, if we're not going to have ongoing big battles? Shit, we haven't lost a single super cap in weeks, 'cause everyone is keeping them at home and don't have any battles planned.

      I especially hate all of this yammer about Goons being impossible to defeat, PL being impossible to defeat, et cetera. Who the fuck really knows? No one is fighting anyone, so its all just bullshit.

      My sub renewal is coming up, but I'm probably going to put my EVE account on pause, until something breaks. I feel like I'm just wasting my sub money right now, waiting for a war that isn't coming (and, no, I'm not going to do mission running or mining to bide the time). Wake me up when the shooting starts.....

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    2. Because that worked so well for NC. This war was never going to happen, there are too many reasons for both sides to buddy back up. PL would never openly risk their tech so they are a non-starter.

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  15. The other thing to think about is The Mittani's skill at manipulating CCP. Given a desire to get a sov rework, add conflict drivers to 0.0, build 'farms and fields', the best thing 0.0 can do for itself is to become a big, stagnating blue donut that extracts isk from the tech moon ATM until CCP wake up and fix the things.

    A giant bloc war in 0.0 generates content and fun and drama yes - and those are precisely the things that will convince CCP that 0.0 is working ok enough that they can bury the rebuild of sov for another few years.

    Mittens has a history of this sort of manipulation and it wouldn't surprise me if effectively blueballing everyone who wants to see a giant 0.0 death match is another example of it.

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    1. Manipulating CCP to make them improve the game. That rat bastard!

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  16. Goons and Test should fight just to see which one is better. Someone throw down the gauntlet! FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT!

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  17. Two things. "That's just, like, my opinion, man" doesn't cover your ass after a post that expresses that opinion as fact, supported by evidence. Second, if you start with the assumption that people are lying about their motivations, everything they say or do will confirm that assumption. In order to make the claim that goons/PL are just protecting their Internet Money, you need evidence beyond "they're liars." This is conspiracy-theorist truther territory.

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  18. Tell me more, person not in nullsec, just how nullsec wars work. Please refer to your faction warfare and EVE University credentials if you need to for research.

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  19. >because it's a given that PL would vacate the HBC were war to break out

    Remember when you kept saying there would be war and you were wrong?

    Same shit again Poetic.

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  20. What I find extremely interesting is the parallel to the real world. There is a reason why the US is not fighting with, say, Russia: the cost is far greater than the benefit and, as an added danger, once the smoke clears China would come out and wipe both of them. Superpowers rarely fight all-out wars.

    Ah, of course, the US will invade Afghanistan because that was never a serious threat to begin with and it helps to keep the soldiers happy. Yea, CFC might declare war to some 100-nubs corp, or piss of one side of the FW war. But risk the real null? Risk losing huge numbers of supercaps? Better use diplomacy instead.

    CCP made this part too realistic IMO and they should do something about it.

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    1. Everyone cries for CCP to fix shit. Waaaaahhhh, I joined one of the two biggest coalitions in Eve and now our leaders don't want to fight each other because sov war is boring after the other side quits or talks their way out of it. Waaaaaaahh, the Gallente took over the warzone cause we couldn't be arsed to defend i-hubs or plexes. Waaaaaahhh, carebears earn more money than I do cause I camp gates and they don't do something stupid. How about you throw your null sec leadership out? How about you undock and defend instead of rolling an alt in an opposing militia? How about you could care less what a carebear does in high-sec? If the grunts are pissed at their leadership for averting a war that was obviously never going to happen, do something about it. Isn't that what all you internet tough guys from CFC and HBC always tell high-sec residents when you gank them?

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  21. This is a fucking game, folks. A PVP game. If everyone in null is just sitting around, doing PVE carebeary things, then everyone should just move to high sec.

    Null sec industry? Who gives a shit? Null is about blowing things - and everything - up, without having stupid Concord insta-blap of high sec to worry about.

    Diplomacy is boring as hell. War is fun and exciting.

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  22. I can't help notice that lots of people have popped up to echo the "We don't want war because sov war is horrible" line but nobody's mentioned Poe's point that despite how horrible sov war is it hasn't stopped the coalitions in this current... thing from fighting sov wars in the recent past.

    It's circumstantial evidence at best but it does imply that there's something more than just "we hate the sov grind" at work behind this cooling down of tempers.

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    1. Because there was an actual reason to fight those wars (and/or they escalated from not-sov-grinding wars into sov-grinding wars).

      "Sov Grinding sucks" stops wars that literally have no possible benefit for either party and whose causus belli is "We're bored, let's stir up drama."

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  23. Of course Poetic Stanziel has to polarize by actually declaring the leader of Test Alliance sane (try staying sane yourself while repeating this statement a few times in your head, it's not easy) but I am with him on this.

    GSF has become the embodiment of hypocrisy itself. Pointing fingers at carebears who need to be taught a lesson about what EVE really is because all they do is make risk free ISK while that is _exactly_ what they have been doing for yeas now.

    I find it incredible how people can still believe all this. I have never liked Test Alliance, but if they really were to take the step to go and attack the CFC "just because" then they will get the same grudging respect from me I used to have for the Goons back in the day when they decided that they will bring BoB down "just because".

    Today Goonswarm is nothing but a cult built on a lie.

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  24. TEST and the Goons have pilots in space right?

    They don't just spend all their free time shitting up every possible forum, do they?

    Nothing sadder than a sycophant too retarded to know whose colon to sniff.

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