I would imagine that the end of 2014 (the entire Winter 2014 expansion cycle, which includes the point releases, which does stretch somewhat into 2015) is a more realistic expectation.
CCP Fozzie and the ship balancing team, probably have their own timeline, but I can't imagine they see their job stretching to the end of 2015. They've been going gangbusters up until this point. There's nothing to believe that they're going to slow down on their output substantially.
Time will tell. If the end of 2015 is the schedule, as Ripard predicts, then that's a little depressing.
Summer 2013 (including updates)
Battleships will be done and T1 rebalancing will be over. I wouldn't be surprised to see the team hit on T3 battlecruisers here as well. They'll also start putting their toes into the T2 waters, particularly black ops. Maybe electronic attack frigates are tackled here as well.Command ships will require more than just shuffling about the database numbers, especially if the plan is to move off-grid boosting towards on-grid boosting (or to at least limit off-grid boosting from inside POSes.) Some of that code work might begin during the summer expansion cycle.
If Ripard Teg is correct, and piracy becomes the theme of the summer expansion (which isn't a crazy prediction since we'll be seeing the introduction of pirate faction rookie ships), then we might see all of the pirate ships given the rebalancing touch-up. I don't think anything radical needs to be done in this area, for the most part, so the workload here should not be enormous.
Winter 2013 (including updates)
I would hope that this is where we see command ships finally given the balancing touch, along with whatever codebase is required to support the new changes.We'll probably see a whole thwack of T2 rebalancing. Again, I see the balancing as mostly touch-ups. These ships already have their pre-defined roles, so rather than the more generalized balancing requirements of the T1 ships, roles direct the touch-ups into specific areas, which should reduce the workload requirements for the balancing team. I'd expect that half of the T2 ships are balanced at this point.
I think the conversation on capital and super-capital ship balancing begins here. The actual balancing won't take place for another year, but the conversation should begin early, especially if codebase changes are required. All ideas will need to be discussed and thought through carefully. Capital ships is not a four-month conversation. Hopefully the community is involved (not just the CSM), to some degree, in that conversation.
Summer 2014 (including updates)
I would expect that nearly the rest of the T2 ships are balanced by this point. Also, faction ships are begun, if not outright completed as well.If command ships were balanced in the previous expansion, CCP has had time to evaluate those changes. Strategic cruisers are probably balanced here, especially their command ship capabilities.
The capital ship balancing initiative continues, and the options are very much narrowed by now. If there are any agreed upon options that require additional codebase changes, they may be begun at this stage.
Winter 2014 (including updates)
Finishing up whatever subcaps remain.This is probably where capital ships are balanced. This may include all new roles. Maybe even the introduction of some new capital ships. (If new ships are introduced, the artwork was probably begun in the previous cycle.) If the work load is much larger than expected, this may stretch into the Summer 2015 expansion, though hopefully not.
The Combat Codebase
In that same podcast, Ripard also suggests that CCP could (and should) revisit the combat code base. Reevaluating all of the formulas, and perhaps recreating them from scratch. The aim: to breath new life into the combat system, and to remove clunky old mechanics.Whereas the combat codebase is probably in need of a rewrite (given what we know of CCP's past coding methods), changing any of the combat calculations is probably an idea that CCP will avoid. Altering the algorithms will likely have unforeseen side-effects on many of the existing ships, throwing previous balance out of whack. CCP would then need to embark on an entirely new round of ship rebalancing. After spending the last three years balancing, the appetite to go through it all again would be exceptionally low.

I would bring to your attention this bittersweet announcement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AmiXiddZc8&feature=youtu.be
ReplyDeleteThis means there will be more manpower or at least more manpower*enthusiasm poured into ship balancing. Fozzie said somewhere that he will step back a little bit and take a consultant role.
It seems Kil2 will be involved in ship balancing (apparently its a great way for new developers to be introduced into EVE's codebase), but I'm unsure of Kil2's qualifications.
DeleteHe's a solo PvP guy, thus the types of ships he generally flies is limited. I'm not sure how broad Kil's knowledge and experience base is. Certainly not as deep as Fozzie's.
We'll see how he does.
The two are completely different, but I wouldn't say one generally outclasses the other. Kil2 is a small gang been there done that guy, has tried to make work every BS/BC/cruiser there is/was, rather than on EFT relies much more on his plentiful combat experience of what each ship is capable off in the current small gang environment. Fozzie is much more an EFT guy, knows the capabilities of each ship but probably doesn't have nearly as much combat experience outside of the bigger fleets.
DeleteI would say the two complement each other nicely.
The big advantage with Kil2 is that he does not pretend to know everything. And, he has no problem with soliciting, and listening to, advice from other players, even in areas in which he himself has extensive experience.
DeleteFozzie is similar, in this respect, which is why the first rounds of ship rebalancing have gone so much better than prior game balancing attempts by brainiacs like Tallest and SoniClover.
People are reading waaaaaay too much into things. The theme hasn't even been decided yet, everyone gave their presentations last week and its all still being discussed.
ReplyDeleteI know you like to take the air out of people's tires, because you're CSM (ooh! aah!) and have access to the sekrit infos ... but Ripard made a guess and I said "If Ripard is correct ..."
DeleteSo calm down. And stop with the "Hey everybody I'm CSM and I know things you all don't, I'm special" schtick. It's tiresome.
Boo hoo. The point is, I'd rather not go around giving people the idea that the summer expansion theme and feature set is somehow in the can. Why discourage people from sharing their ideas? The whole point of involving the CSM this early in the process is to include -player- feedback this early in the process as well.
DeleteEveryone's time is better spent sharing what kinds of themes and features they'd like to see than by trying to guess what theme has -already- been chosen, when it hasn't. This has nothing to do with taunting you with "sekrit infos".
When you're finished writing the "How Not To Step On the CSMs Toes" manual, be sure to pass it along.
DeleteWho the fuck are you to tell anyone what they should or should not write, what they should or should not guess at?
Seriously. Fuck off.
The CSM has gone to your head Hans.
DeleteIt is a little hard to receive player feed back when the entire grab bag of features they are prepared to work on are all NDA.
DeleteJust for the record, a close reading of that "Pirates!" post will show that it was much more suggestion than prediction. I told Hans the same thing.
DeleteGot a link to the podcast?
ReplyDeleteYep: http://declarationsofwar.com/?p=377
DeleteYou've forgotten the haulers, both T1 and T2, all of which are long overdue for rebalancing. Capital industrials - the Orca, and esp. the Rorqual, will need to be reviewed, too.
ReplyDeleteT3 cruisers are also on the list of ships to be rebalanced. This isn't going to be a quick tweak, because these ships are a bit more complicated than just moving around slots.
Also, your assumption that the T2 ship rebalancing is going to be quick touch-ups is patently wrong. There are just as many T2 ships in every category which are not used, as there were T1 ships. And, there are a lot of T2 ship categories, each which have widely different roles, many with peculiar bonuses:
o AFs
o CovOps
o EAFs
o Interceptors
o Interdictors
o HACs
o Heavy dictors
o Logis
o Recons
o Command ships
o Blops
o Marauders
If they take the same care with these ships, as Fozzie did with the T1 ships, then Jester's 2015 estimation isn't that pessimistic.
Yeah, I have to agree here. There are WAY too many types of T2 ships, all of them too specialized, to get them all done in two expansions. It'll have to be part of three.
DeleteThere's also too many faction ships -- 35 of them, by my count -- to do in a single expansion. Then you've got ship classes you didn't mention like industrials and tech 3s.
It's possible I'm being pessimistic, but I don't think so. In between all of that, there will almost certainly be revisits of previously balanced ships like the mining barges and destroyers. That will slow things down.
Poe - don't be depressed by how long the ship rebalancing might take.
ReplyDeleteThe most important thing to keep in mind is that it *is* finally being done right (more or less) and aggressively so, after frustrating years of few and mostly useless changes, by devs who don't play the game nor listen to the feedback from the players.
In this case, the glass is far more than 1/2 full and far less than 1/2 empty.
I agree completely with this sentiment. If I had my way, this process would be continuous and more or less unending.
DeleteYou say that now, because Fozzie ... but someone else in that role, maybe not so much excitement at the prospect. And I doubt Fozzie wants to make ship balancing his CCP career ... not much room for upward mobility there.
DeleteFozzie doesn't need to do all of the work himself - he has, however, proven that it can be done, efficiently and correctly, to the satisfaction of both the players and CCP.
DeleteAnd, as CCP is fond of saying these days, there is no going back. No more lame excuses.
" then we might see all of the pirate ships given the rebalancing touch-up. I don't think anything radical needs to be done in this area, for the most part, so the workload here should not be enormous."
ReplyDeleteI lol'd. How often do you see pirate frigs besides Daredevils and Dramiels? I don't think I've seen a Cruor EVER, and don't even know the name of the Sansha frig. Worm "sounds good" on paper but ooh, longer ranged rockets and moar unbonused drones. Meh. It has just enough tank to make dying slow and painful.
Cruisers? Gila is a huge improvement over Worm. Seen an Ashimmu in a gatecamp once. Phantasm? lol. Again, Vigilant and Cynabal are the only ones that are actually flown.
BSes? Bhaalgorn! At last the Blood Raiders make the radar! Seen those and Vindicators before in blingy gatecamps. Rattlesnakes are relegated to a high-priced "AFK Navy Domi missioning ship", and oh hey I hear Nightmares are good for Incursions.
No, the pirate ships don't need much, they're :working as intended:. Sounds legit. ;-)
Not every ship needs to have a strong PvP role. If some of those have valued PvE roles, then so be it.
DeleteSee and I'm of the exact opposite school of thought: pretty much everything should have some sorta PvP AND PvE application. Then again I'm the guy who would re-class EAFs as "bubble-sweepers" using codebreaker modules to "hack" and unanchor bubbles, maybe offline POS modules, that sorta thing. ;-)
Delete