Since Crucible, and especially Inferno, I had thought EVE University had turned a corner. It looked like Kelduum had stopped obsessing over killboard stats, that he'd stopped manipulating his killboard to improve those stats. The Uni's lowsec camp was successful and going strong. They were being wardecced and the Uni's super-restrictive wartime standard operating procedures (WSOP) had stopped being a firm set of rules and became just a set of smart guidelines for players. It looked like maybe EVE University were becoming good citizens of New Eden, that they were climbing out of their insular shell and contributing to the experience of EVE Online across the board.
I may have been too quick to judge that sort of victory upon them. They are, ultimtely, a big bureaucratic mess. They have pages upon pages of rules. Their CEO still has entitlement issues as witnessed during the 317B ISK debacle. They still teach an overall strategy of risk-averse gameplay to the majority of their members, because their ranks are still chock full of risk-averse bittervets.
Today I received a kind note from one of the few unistas who has finally realized that being with EVE University has actually been a restriction to everything EVE Online had to offer him:
Hi! You don't know me. I don't really know you or even know a lot about you. I've recently started looking over your blog after I saw your posts regarding E-Uni on the eve forums.So, still lots of problems with the University and the types of players they are churning out. They're making some progress, but at a snail's pace. Thankfully, some players, through force of their own will, come to realize that there's so much more to EVE Online than EVE University ever let on.
I just wanted to say thank you for being vocal about your issues with the institution. I've been with E-uni since my first week of Eve and as a result of worrying about upsetting the higher ups by losing ships I essentially denied myself a lot of fun and spent the last 7.5 months logging in only to set a training queue or leave with the blob.
I would probably still be doing so if not for your enlightening post regarding the manipulation of Kill Mails, which frankly makes me somewhat ashamed to be even associated with the corp.
I just wanted to let you know at least one person appreciates how vocal you have been on this subject. I'm in the process of dropping corp and set on heading into null in an assault frig and getting some frags or being fragged. I really don't care which.
Fuck the haters who cry "whiner" they've their heads too far up their own arses to have an opinion on the matter.
Anyway sorry for wasting your time with this mail. It's probably pretty insubstantial to you. But I felt obliged to send it anyway. Maybe I'll blap you in null some time or the vice versa(more likely)
Thanks again and fuck the haters :D
----
TL;DR Thanks for calling out e-uni. Helped my decide to drop and enabled me to go have fun in null.
How many unsubs occur because a new player's first experience is a solo one with no one to trust?
ReplyDeleteEvE Uni brings people into a cohesive social group ... one you don't like or approve of but so what?
If a player forms no attachment in game to corps / alliances what are the chances they stay in the game? How better off would we be if everyone that went through EvE Uni had quit instead?
Your basic assumption is that they would have gotten involved in something better --- I don't think that's necessarily valid.
The former EvE uni pilot you quoted left eve uni for a better group -- but he did stay in the game.
I don't approve of their rules, drama BS, or any specific pilots in EvE Uni but there is a critical advantage to giving new pilots a place to go to form the bonds that will keep them in the game.
"There is a critical advantage to giving new pilots a place to go to form the bonds that will keep them in the game."
DeleteDid I say anything about that being terrible? There are far better groups where new players can form bonds and learn about what EVE has to offer, without being turned into risk-averse scrubs.
Fweddit. Test. Brave Newbies. Goonswarm. One of the many corps in the HBC or CFC. RvB. There are lots of options.
EVE University could be doing a far better job. But they aren't.
Again, Poe, gonna call you on your organization examples. 3 of the four you mentioned do not let new players join unless they join from out-of-game. That, in my view, disqualifies them from any kind of newbie-help groups.
DeleteFor the rest, well, yeah, I agree. The old E-Uni was what kept me from converting my original trial account into a paying account when I first tried the game back in 08. Too many rules, not enough communication. I hated it so much I quit the game and only came back because a bunch of friends from another game were joining EvE.
Fweddit is pretty lax on the Reddit requirement. And that's why I also mentioned the very many Test and Goonswarm corps that do not have the requirement. Not too mention the HBC and CFC alliances that also do not have the requirement.
DeleteYou're biased, Poetic. That is not meant as a disparaging comment in any way, just a statement of fact. It is not inherently bad or good to be biased, especially when you make no claim of objectivity, which you typically don't, bias is a sign of affirmation of a value. Not noticing your bias yourself, however, deducts from the worth of what you might have to say.
DeleteWhile Eve University might not be doing the best job possible, they are the only group of that size that is not reliant on a non-Eve community -- Fweddit and TEST and Goonswarm require membership in such a community to pre-exist. While the strategy promoted by Eve-Uni might be risk-averse and might not really be introducing players to the fun that you, yourself are aware of, there is no denying it is effective in keeping them subscribed, i.e. providing them with a certain level of enjoyment of the game that justifies the subscription price.
Whatever Eve-Uni is, it's an adaptation to the existing environment of Eve, which is, ultimately, shaped by decisions CCP made over ten years, even if CCP was not aware of what effects would these decisions have when real people start playing with them.
You can't blame society for everything, but the laws of physics have a lot to answer for.
Who says I'm not aware of my own biases. I do not have to spell them out as a preamble to every post though. And it's not really my job to explain my biases. People can deduce (or not) those on their own.
DeleteAs for the reqs of Test and Goonswarm ... again, only in the main corps of those alliances ... Dreddit, for instance, in Test's case. The rest of the corps in the alliance do not have those requirements.
I say you're not aware. Please meditate further or ignore me, but I do say so. :)
DeleteWell, if you say it, then it must be true. :roll eyes:
DeleteI have a specific narrative, and I prefer to mostly keep to it.
Multiple corps in TEST and i'm sure Goons that aren't related to Reddit and recruit day old newbies.
DeleteIt may well be that there are corps in TEST and Goonswarm that do accept new-comers. Oh, and not rip them off. But those alliances do have a ... distinct ... reputation even outside EVE and any corp associated with them is tainted.
DeleteMike.
Tainted? The E-Uni curriculum at work.
DeletePoe, have you ever considered giving a guest lecture? E-UNI actively welcomes out of corp players to give their perspective of a given play style, so long as students learn something, as opposed to being lectured at.
DeleteYour examples of who to join outside of E-UNI are probably one of the main reasons why I'm still in E-UNI after 18 months within the game. HBC/CFC block blue donut holds zero attraction for me. Our Work Fair forum is littered with HBC/CFC corps recruiting but with little in the way of alternative options.
It's a valid concern - just ask Bob 'NonPedo' how WIdot turned down his application because in their opinion fweddit is too closely associated with TEST.
DeleteHe ended up joining TEST because goons wouldn't take someone with his employment history.
The metagame is a lot more relaxed now than it used to be but a goonswarm or dreddit (or even fweddit) entry in your employment history will still block many doors for you.
A new player can't really overlook the consequences of joining a 0.0 bloc early in his career - by following your advice he might easily lock himself into one political corner of the EVE universe for at least several months with no easy way out.
Young characters with, say, Goonswarm in their employment record are even more likely to be seen as potential awoxers/spies than veteran pilots. Good luck finding a decent corp outside the CFC that will take them.
EVE Uni is loosely associated with TEST/ENL-I but still viewed as politically neutral. That alone as a massive advantage.
As a former member of E-uni and Current member of Goonwaffe, i can say with certainty that almost all other corps in Goonswarm have quite stringent recruitment Standards. Corps like Bat country, Mechi, WIdot, and especially Amok. all require SP/out of game skills/connections to get acceptance.
DeleteE-uni actually offers a very good way into nullsec with Ponywaffe of TEST, a corp founded by former unistas who recruits heavily from the uni. Not to mention "The Graduates" of RAZOR, and Agony for those looking to go into low sec.
I think the fundamental disconnect between your viewpoint and that of say, kelduum, is that many players are not inclined to venture into Null/low to begin with, at least in their first year of play, no matter how you prod them. And other players come into the game determined to leave safety behind. Where Uni might make a difference is in undecided players who want to try things first, and getting your SP/wallet to a decent number in highsec is not a terrible idea considering that many null/low corps have SP and hanger requirements.
That said, i spend a lot of time in uni chat convincing anyone i can to go run the angels epic arc in Curse, it's immensely rewarding and teaches so many null-sec survival skills. Best of all it can be done in a destroyer, telling the players that losing ships is not big deal considering what the rewards can be.
EvE Uni is way better than the average path for a newbie. Few people are so fortunate to get into a better organization at the beginning of their eve life (though they exist).
ReplyDeleteYou are still encouraged to move on. Most of the recruiting comes from null and lowsec.
I found the lowsec camp (back in Dudreda, before it moved away and back again) quite fun. I fondly remember twice baiting strategic cruisers in my Myrm... Once killed by a small blob (heavy neuting an active tank), the other time killed with 4 players with a T1 logi cruiser (before the recent buffs!), my Myrm being the most powerfull ship. Oh fun, times.
It's not all bad, all I am saying.
Uni pilot here. There is a short list of things you aren't allowed to do, and 'head into null and lose a load of assault frigates' isn't one of them. Nor is 'undock not in a blob'.
ReplyDeletePerhaps the uni is enabling people who are inclined to limit themselves, but I'm pretty damn sure it's not forcing them into it.
The LSC is full of bloodthirsty enthusiasts who are happy so long as *someone* explodes, and I assure you we are recruiting internally...
I love the LSC ... they are one of the bright points of the Uni. But they are just a very small minority of the membership.
DeleteYou're on Mumble. You hear the risk-averse bullshit from the older members to the newer members all the time. I've heard it. I know you've heard it, if you hang out at all in the general/default channel.
I don't. Didn't get on with it well. Never stopped to analyze why, but I can't dispute your assessment of it.
DeleteYAU* Here.
ReplyDeleteAs the previous E-Uni poster mentioned, the list of things you can do that will cause issues is pretty short. And to be honest most of them are out of reach of 'new' players anyway. I'm a little confused as to why your correspondant felt he had to leave to go to null. Besides the low-sec camp we also have a null-sec camp and a wormhole camp. Any of which would have welcomed this player with open arms. All three are prominently posted on the E-Uni Wiki and have their own forum areas.
Besides that, there are numerous regular organized events, including roams into low or null, run out of E-Uni headquarters in Aldrat and we set aside a nearby system as a Frigate FFA area. To a large extent members are expected to manage their own play and to seek out areas of the game that they're interested in. The Uni is not going to spoon-feed them action. If my ex-corp mate spent 7.5 months waiting to blow something up then my interpretation is that spoon-feeding is what he needed and perhaps that is something a large null-sec alliance can give him. Great! No, really!
It maybe that the default E-Uni Mumble channel is not a good place to hang out, but then again the same is true of most default channels everywhere (eg Jita local, Barrens chat). I feel it's also definitely true that sometimes leadership gets bogged down in the details rather than just getting out there and blowing stuff up, witness the recent POS debacle.
But the Uni *is* great place for players to start out. They won't get ripped off or ganked by corp-mates. They will get free ships, free skillbooks, access to almost every part of the game, a respectful place to learn and room to grow.
Mike.
* Yet Another Unista
Dunno where this risk-averse thing comes from. We have whelped plenty of fleets onto you just for the heck of it. Look at our KB if you want to get a feel of what we do. Your feelings may have been right when you were in the uni, but we do plenty of small gang "just look for some trouble" stuff now. I understand if some newer member gets that feel, until they find a community within the uni they are comfortable with. The rules are very lax atm and many new people don't understand that recommendations are not the same as rules.
ReplyDeleteThe LSC is a very small part of the University.
DeleteNever leaving highsec, except via a Uni fleet, is risk-averse. I appreciate those fleets in our area ... but for the most part, unistas are taught to fear low/nullsec as solo, and even small group, activities.
I wasn't talking about the LSC. We have tons of pilots doing their own thing in low null and WH space. If any uni asks if it's a good idea to go solo into low we tell them to insure their ship and have fun. Ofc you will always have people running missions and only joining the blob for PvP but we don't teach people to fear anything. The institution is about inclusivity, and that if you search you will find what you are looking for in EVE.
DeleteIf that is now the case, then the Uni deserves some credit for changing for the better. When I was in the Uni, anybody that mentioned doing something in low was often told to never go to low, it's dangerous and you'll lose your ship. I got in a few heated arguments with those sorts of people and took the questioning newbie aside to give them useful advice and tips on dealing with lowsec.
DeleteI was in lowsec from my early days, even given all the dire warnings of the Uni "elite". And I took what I knew and passed it on where I could.
Perhaps you should actually base columns on up to date information, not your biases from years ago.
DeleteYep, E-Uni is all about the blob, and spanking noobs until they learn to be an unthinking part of the blob. Listen to the FC, target the primary, press F1. That's what you learn in E-Uni these days.
ReplyDeleteYou won't see E-Uni encouraging runs into low sec, solo or in small gangs, because they suck at it. And, Kelduum and Co. don't like to advertise how badly they really suck at PVP. Bad PR.
If you want to learn PVP in high sec and have a good time while doing it, then join RvB instead. You'll always find a lot of experienced players, who are willing to help out new players. They also have some of the most fun low sec roams.
This is funny RvB. You brought a blob so large to Aldrat that even the uni couldn't handle it. We were spanking you left and right with smaller fleets in the pipe. We destroyed your smaller gangs in lowsec. We went into your homesystem and fought you. I'm not saying that we are leet but than neither are you.
Delete@Byrune - you are pretty clueless, aren't you?
DeleteRvB isn't about being l33t and it isn't about running away or docking up when you can't win (unlike E-Uni). RvB is all about having fun, blowing up ships *and* getting blown up - which is the whole point of an Internet spaceship game.
In RvB, you learn that losing ships - even a lot of ships - isn't a big deal. In E-Uni, you learn to run away and come back with a blob.
Unless you're a masochist, winning is fun, while losing is not-fun. Therefore winning > losing, and therefore you do whatever you can to ensure you come out on the winning side. Failing that, you avoid "losing", by "blueballing" -- running, docking up, etc, which is also not-fun, but not as not-fun as actually losing. It also has the added side benefit of denying your opposition the feeling of "winning" and "fun".
DeleteSo I guess actually it should technically go blueballing > winning > losing. ;-)
Byrune, I saw the war from RvB side.
DeleteIt seemed to me that your FCs lacked practice. I'm guessing that that may be because the Uni is too top down, that the gulf between students and teachers is too wide. To kick ass in pvp you need a ton of fcs, basically there should be an experienced FC available 23/7/365. My impression was that you don't have that.
Anyway good job on the pipe camping, you got me once but you have to see pipe camping for what it is - a second choice tactic while a more important fight is happening elsewhere that you don't want to take. After you killed my Caracal in the pipe I flew to Aldrat in my pod and helped put your pos into reinforced.
Anyway I support the Uni and hope that our war with you encourages some navel-gazing, some improvement at pvp. We gave you a pvp education, hope you pass it on to your students.
Ex-unista and RVB pilot here. E Uni is awesome and we had great fun. Last week should be seen as something to cheer on both sides imo.
DeleteNew pilots should try both, I know I benefited from putting my alt in E Uni.
@Hong - some screwy logic you've got going there. Did you learn this in E-Uni? I certainly hope that you don't apply the same logic in RL.
DeleteLosing to a superior opponent, on equal terms, is the best way to improve your own skills. Ask anyone who plays chess, or tennis.
Winning, by any means (incl. superior numbers, upshipping, etc.) is only fun for the incompetent. There is no challenge in stacking the odds to beat an inferior opponent, and it certainly isn't something you brag about, unless you are truly pathetic.
Avoiding a loss by not playing (ie. running away, docking up, whatever) is much worse than losing. Essentially, you are forfeiting the field, giving up without a fight. Worse than a loser, you are a coward.
As the old adage goes: "It's not whether you win or lose. It's how you play the game."
@anon -- that sort of screwy logic I actually learned from -A-. ;-) If you can't beat em, dock up and "turtle", and blueball the fuck out of them. ;-)
DeleteAs for RL, I don't use "logic" in real life -- it's hazardous to your health! Real life is far too full of those "fallacy" things that logicians claim don't exist and aren't valid, like slippery slopes. I broke my left ankle falling down one of those back in 2008. Cracked the distal end of my fibula right in half like a wishbone. Don't tell a logician that, though: slippery slopes are fallacious and don't really exist, so my injury was really all just in my head. ;-)
@Hong - well, that explains it. We all know what has happened to -A-. :)
DeleteThe really sad thing (if you don't mind the retrospective comments) is that we went into the EVE Uni war looking for good fights from a high sec entity that was equalish in numbers to us RVB folk. While the POS was indeed a goal, it was announced that it wasn't to be used unless we needed to give EVE Uni a rally cry and come out to fight. I wasn't involved in the war nearly as much as I wanted to (from RL issues) but most of the word I heard was, you didn't provide. Hence, we attacked the POS.
DeleteYea, you took a few of us in small groups. I lost a BS in a nice bait trap you folks staged. I whoooped and laughed as you guys pounded my Rokh to oblivion and took my pod with it. It was a great sucker move that I fell into. Kudos.
We've also read the AAR on the POS bash where your FC admitted to a cascade of failings that lead to the fall of the POS. Stuff happens. I could have just as easily been us. I recall hearing the failing of RVB to take out the POS in previous wars.... If you are done with that FC of yours, send him to us. We'll teach him to have fun. ;)
We've tried not to beat our chests. We were looking for good fights. Raging on the RVB "blob" just makes you look worse.
Oh, and you may want to consider letting your rank and file offer up a "gf" in local.
Random
This guy wrote a pretty good blog post that soundly refutes most of your criticisms of EVEUni, Poe. Perhaps you should read it.
ReplyDeletehttp://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com/2011/07/eve-university-one-students-opinion.html
I'm no fan of big alliances, including EVEUni, but they're no worse than most afaic.
As for the blobbing vs suiciding vs blueballing argument, a happy medium is best.
ReplyDeleteDon't run suicide fleets, as it just demonstrates your impatience and gives the enemy no incentive to give you good fights. It also gives your gangmates no incentive to bring anything remotely shiny and you spend most of your time reshipping or slipping off to PvE or to play a truly great game like Don't Starve.
If you're out in a gang, gank what comes along and if a truly fair fight appears, take it. If the enemy outnumbers/outclasses you, and even winning the 'ISK war' is a remote possibility at best, either run or blueball them. Cowardly? Uh, no. Not even a little. Your goal should be good fights. Farming yourself out means you both failed to achieve your goal and made achieving that goal harder in the future (because the enemy will know you're an impatient little spaz and will just blob you again the next time.)
Eve-Uni is OK for new players ...
ReplyDeleteBut if you spend more than 6 months there, you are doing EvE wrong.
Use the jobs faire in their forum, and get out.
aside from the members who intend to stay on as "staff", I'm assuming?
Delete-Bantara
Thing about Eve U is they are very unintuitive to join. Most new players do not want a convoluted join process like they have. Ever checked what all hoops you got to go through?
ReplyDelete"Fweddit. Test. Brave Newbies. Goonswarm. One of the many corps in the HBC or CFC. RvB. There are lots of options." (Poetic)
ReplyDeleteMy only problem with your suggested list is the lack of particular cultures. Brave Newbies isn't even 30 days old yet, so it's hard to say what their culture is or will develop into. RvB might be decent, the only thing I know about them is their mutual hi-sec war agreement. But the other 5...? I don't know...
Any of them LBGT friendly? Any of them 'white-hat' friendly?
I am quite sure that I probably have a distorted opinion of those groups in one way or another, but I also figure that reputation has been earned. My point being, corp and alliance culture is just as if not more important than what it is teaching you. And I'm not sure the groups you offer as alternative places for newbs to go are decent options for anyone other than the HTFU, cursing, e-ethics is B.S., racial and orientation flinging players. For all I know, Eve-Uni isn't any better, though. (And again for good measure, I could be completely wrong in that assessment.)
-Bantara
Delete