CCP considers the act of bumping a normal game mechanic, and does not class the bumping of another player’s ship as an exploit. However, persistent targeting of a player with bumping by following them around after they have made an effort to move on to another location can be classified as harassment, and this will be judged on a case by case basis.
Like any CCP pronouncement, further clarification was needed.
If you are reported and we find you actively following around a target without a war to continue bumping a specific player, it will still (at some point) considered harassment, even if you divert your 'attention' a little while doing so. If you have a bone to pick with someone, declare a war and take the risk that your target may actually taste blood and fight back (or finds allies for that part).
Fair enough, with regards to what constitutes harassment. If you have enough of a beef with a miner to follow them system to system, then wardec them already (given NPC corps aren't part of the equation.)
From the miner perspective, though, what constitutes "moving"? CCP clarified further:
While it will involve inconvenience, we will have to see that one actively tried evasion before we consider someone being followed around and harassed. Merely changing belts in the same system or moving a few thousand meters to another asteroid would not qualify in this regard. Ideally you would move to other systems and more than just one or two jumps to avoid being found again quickly, requiring some effort to locate you again (i.e. through locator agents).
More clarification: is harassment looked at by person or character:
If the miner starts changing regions and is still being followed around by the same person that keeps bumping in a regular manner then the intent is pretty clear. Note that I said person, not character, so regional alts will be considered be the same player in this regard.
All of this is more than fair enough, and it's how we all expected CCP to rule on the issue.
Of course, that didn't stop a few people from suggesting that miner bumping become a flaggable offense. I would love to see CCP perform a one-week live trial, flagging any ship that bumps another with a suspect flag. When two ships bump, the bumper is determined to be the one travelling at the greater velocity. Turn that on for a week, and let's see how the carebears react to their request. Oh, the emergent gameplay that would come from this.
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Why do people miner bump in the first place? The reaction they get from miners would be one of the big reasons. If you don't react, the bumper will probably move on to another miner. The second big reason, easy to spot the AFK miners (and potential botters).
"I would love to see CCP perform a one-week live trial, flagging any ship that bumps another with a suspect flag. When two ships bump, the bumper is determined to be the one travelling at the greater velocity."
ReplyDeleteI quite literally lol'd. Yes, sic that flight of Warrior IIs on that Stabber!
I'm pretty sure that whole "suspect" flagging thing was a well-conceived troll on Soundwave's part. Now it's mostly used for station-baiting, not enabling swift, divine Retribution for "transgressions".
After a two month wait, CCP manages to:
ReplyDelete1. Not realize that most highsec miners are in NPC corps.(or be willing to pretend otherwise)
2. Issue a policy that probably means nothing but is worded unclearly so now no one is happy.
3. Have delayed long enough so that most of group which spawned this discussion in the first place has moved on to ganking, anyway.
Typical.
"I would love to see CCP perform a one-week live trial, flagging any ship that bumps another with a suspect flag. When two ships bump, the bumper is determined to be the one travelling at the greater velocity."
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AKbUm8GrbM
Stabber > Fleet of Miners. Stabber goes suspect and so do all the miners (for getting knocked into each other).
Park 10km off the Jita undock directly in line with the Perimeter jump gate. Guns preheated.
ReplyDeleteYou're a cunt.
ReplyDeleteIn similar vein:
ReplyDeletehttp://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=141310
Look how well *that* turned out for them :D
Er... this isn't a new CCP stance. "Bumping" was brought up as an issue years ago, and CCP rendered the same judgement - ie. situational bumping as part of combat is ok; continual bumping is harassment and is not ok.
ReplyDeleteBTW - the reason you bump miners, or any other large ship, is to prevent them from escaping by entering warp. This tactic is used by gankers on gates and station undocks, too.
Except in this new round of "bumping". People are simply bumping miners out of range of their chosen asteroid. Which is hilarious for the AFK/botting miners. Most times they just end up floating for hours, out of range of their rocks. :)
Delete@Poe - this form of bumping is also not new. Players who find AFK mining and mining bots particularly offensive have been doing this for years. CCP made the same decision, then. Do it a few times, ok. Do it repeatedly to the same player, then you risk getting hit with a temp ban, if he/she complains to CCP.
DeleteBTW - even if it is somehow proven that the bumped player was using a bot, this does not automatically absolve the player doing the bumping. This is because some of the bumpers were falsely accusing bumpees of being bots, in order to justify the harassment.
Note also that while using a bot is an EULA violation, AFK play most emphatically is not. And, harassing an AFK player *is* considered an EULA violation.
"People are simply bumping miners out of range of their chosen asteroid. Which is hilarious for the AFK/botting miners. Most times they just end up floating for hours, out of range of their rocks."
DeleteBumping works well on static ships, but not so well on ships which are moving. Can't a miner simply use orbit to keep within range of the rock/ice and make bumping more problematic? Or anchor a can and orbit the can? And/or, if the miner has a couple of trial alts, he/she can have them orbit the mining ship, to interfere with bumpers.
They say it is bumping only AFK miners, but they continually bump ships even as you are having a conversation with them. They tell you to pay 10M isk per ship to avoid being bumped, but then come back and gank you. The "code" they have you swear allegience to actually says that when ganked you are supposed to THANK the ganker for destroying your ship. It is all simply a scam, but an entertaining one for some. Their leader posts all the tears on his blog to add to the humiliation of those who succumb to his scam. You can go read their own words and see this isn't just hypothetical stuff.
ReplyDeleteThe gankers would have you ignore another CCP ruling. To avoid ganks, miners can use a trial alt in a rookie ship to shoot their own ship to spawn Concord. Concord will hang around all day on grid until downtime and provide instant infinite destruction of gankers. A ganker will get 1 shot before being immediately jammed, scrammed, and blowed up. They would have to destroy your ship in a single shot. Gankers already "prep" a gank by committing a criminal act elsewhere in system to draw the Concord spawn away from the asteroid/ice field, but that can be a warning for miners of imminent attack. Warp out or have the trial alt shoot something again to create another Concord spawn. This is all legal as long as the trial alt (or even a paid alt) doesn't get deleted in order to avoid negative security status that spawning Concord will incur. This won't avoid bumping, but it will stop ganking.
lol... you are joking, right?
DeleteA competent ganker draws CONCORD away just prior to the gank. Once CONCORD has left the belt, it will not return/respawn immediately, even if the miner alt realizes it as soon as it happens and does something to draw it back. Once CONCORD is drawn off, the ganker has plenty of time to blow the miner up.
"They say it is bumping only AFK miners, but they continually bump ships even as you are having a conversation with them. They tell you to pay 10M isk per ship to avoid being bumped, but then come back and gank you."
DeleteWe bump all *non-Compliant* miners. Being At-The-Keyboard and Carrying a Permit are both necessary conditions for being deemed Compliant.
"The "code" they have you swear allegience to actually says that when ganked you are supposed to THANK the ganker for destroying your ship."
Thank the people who brought a little excitement into your day - seems reasonable to me.
"Their leader posts all the tears on his blog to add to the humiliation of those who succumb to his scam."
Whether a player feels humiliated or offended as a result of events that transpired in a virtual world, is entirely up to him and a reflection of his attitudes. The more mature individuals look on it as being all in good fun, and part of the game.
"To avoid ganks, miners can use a trial alt in a rookie ship to shoot their own ship to spawn Concord. Concord will hang around all day on grid until downtime and provide instant infinite destruction of gankers. A ganker will get 1 shot before being immediately jammed, scrammed, and blowed up."
You are correct, and this is certainly a valid tactic for you to use. To counter this, gankers may commit criminal actions elsewhere in system to draw CONCORD away, or they may even use bumping ships to *bump* the CONCORD squad a sufficient distance from you.
"This won't avoid bumping, but it will stop ganking."
There exist effective methods to minimize the impact of bumpers on mining ships - they tend to require a modicum of effort, which is why so many miners believe these methods don't exist.
"The more mature individuals look on it as being all in good fun, and part of the game."
DeleteWell, when they say miners have to ask for permission to use the bathroom, I think it is decidedly NOT just part of the game.
"...they tend to require a modicum of effort, which is why so many miners believe these methods don't exist..."
I agree. There are plenty of systems and it requires little effort to just move...that's what I did. And because I agree that people should actually have to participate in the game, I was actually all for this New Order stuff when I initially heard about it. But reading the blogs on minerbumping.com showed me they were just out to scam people and collect the tears. I still read it because it is sometimes funny stuff, but it's still a scam worthy of spamming in Jita.
Now you're against scamming?
DeleteAdmittedly, you need a good sense of humor to appreciate the minerbumping movement, and the contents of James's blog - if you take yourself or others too seriously, then it will go right over your head (I'm not addressing anyone specifically here).
DeleteHaving miners request permission to use the bathroom is a joke - and not a malicious one, in my opinion. If you had to use the restroom in lowsec or zerosec, you would probably make an effort to safeguard your ship (whether by docking or cloaking). In highsec, some players erroneously assume they are absolutely safe and object to any inconveniences that befalls them while they are not at the keyboard to respond.
Some anonymous person pointed out that with your proposed rules, just sitting outside Jita (or one of the other trade hubs) stationary, you'll suspect flag a lot of people just for bumping into your ship.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if you can set up a cloud of newbie ships at the warp gate just outside of Uedama or Niarja to force folks warping to zero to collide with you and gain a suspect flag that carries with them into the next system, where the gank squad no longer need fear concord now.
Thanks for summing up the rulings, Poetic. Goodness knows CCP wasn't about to make their position clear without prodding.
ReplyDeleteFor those who don't know, the big deal with miner bumping now is bumping Mackinaws/Retrievers that are mining ice AFK. A high-skilled Mackinaw can mine ice for about 25-30 minutes, targeting the same ice block the whole time, before the hold is full. Therefore lots of them just start the lasers, leave, and come back at the appointed time. If you bump him 5 minutes into the cycle, he comes back with a near-empty hold and his lasers turned off. If he asks why, he immediately reveals he wasn't watching and opens himself up to ganking.
Minerbumping is all about griefing and ganking them; particularly the AFK ones. The bumpers seem to enjoy it; they talk incessantly. It is on the order of 10-20 lines of text typed for each bump performed. Really they're role-playing in exchange for tears.
Some "fun" excerpts from "The Code" (http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html):
ReplyDelete- Mining indulgences may be purchased for 10 million isk per character, and are good for one year, subject to forfeiture.
- Miners should strive not only to avoid botting, but to avoid even the appearance of botting.
- Bot-aspirant behavior is not permitted.
- No AFK mining allowed. All miners are expected to remain at their keyboards at all times, and are required to prove their presence by responding in local when requested by the Supreme Protector or one of his Agents.
- New Order territory is a safe space for suicide gankers. Miners are required to put aside their prejudices and treat gankers with respect.
- Upon being suicide ganked, a miner should congratulate the ganker on his success. A "good fight" or "gf" in local is customary.
- No excessive mining. Miners should not fall into a routine of mining all day. I want well-rounded people in my system, not ice-mining machines.
- Keep local clean. Miners should be courteous in local and should refrain from the use of profanity.
...
- Prejudice toward minorities is not permitted. For the sake of clarity, this cannot apply to all groups claiming minority status, but only discrete and insular minorities, which are defined as suicide gankers, Goons, and others who oppose highsec mining.
...
It's all just a game to them. It's role-playing for tears. They did seem to get annoyed when it was suggested that James 315 is just an alt of The Mittani, though.
In my opinion, the miner bumping movement was created to draw attention to the unreasonable entitlement mentality of the vocal highsec 'carebears', through satire and irony.
ReplyDelete1. Bumpers use one of the most innocuous mechanisms to inconvenience a miner, but are still met with a flurry of outrage over it.
2. Bumpers sometimes abuse wardec evasion, and are met with complaints from the very same subpopulation who desired wardec evasion in the first place.
3. Bumpers are protected by CONCORD, and are met with complaints from the same subpopulation who desired CONCORD buffs.
So harassing all miners indiscriminately is not actionable harassment? That's what it sounds like to me.
ReplyDeleteIt's odd and possibly even rather wimpy that they've released a statement on bumping and not addressed James315/New Order which is the pertinent issue.
Bumping *all* miners indiscriminately is *not* harassment, as defined by the EULA. Harassment is a prohibited action which is repeatedly taken against the same specific player by another player.
DeleteSo, if you were to bump Poe, and only Poe, no matter where he roams in the game, that would be harassment. If you bump everyone undocking from Jita, indiscriminately, that would *not* be harassment.
Yeah that's my reading too but considering that this issue is entirely about james315 and friends they coulda been a bit clearer.
DeleteIf I were mining in high sec I'd report them every time and see how the chips land.
CCP does not take kindly to misusing the reporting system.
Deletejames315 and New Order are already being investigated by the GMs, due to numerous petitions. So, now they *are* being monitored.
DeleteAs long as they are not dumb enough to provide evidence by singling out specific miners, they will be ok. Otherwise, they will be warned and receive temp bans, as necessary.
Miner bumping, high sec ganking, and other "harassment" of high sec noobs are just random noise and should prove to CCP that the stupid changes to the wardec and bounty systems have utterly failed to engage *real* PVP in high sec.
ReplyDeleteNot surprising, though.
Soundwave, SoniClover, et al have no clue whatsoever as to what motivates the high sec carebears to play the game. Thus they also have no clue as to how to get them to engage in PVP, consensual or non-consensual, rather than just unsubbing when "forced" to play the game according to idiots like Soundwave.
Carebears aren't really opposed to PVP. Just like null and low sec dwellers, though, they don't want CCP telling them how they should be playing in the sandbox. Fix the high sec rules so they actually make sense (such as fixing the wardec fee formula and applying bounties only to neg sec status players such that you can shoot them first without a Concord response) and you'd see a lot more carebears willing to engage.