So I'm rewriting the post. I am keeping the original title, for some posterity of my asshattery, even if it means nothing with respect to this rewrite.
First of all, I'm not blaming CCP Explorer or CCP Fozzie for any feature that is not implemented. The developers at CCP do not get to decide what they work on. Certainly, they have input in their scrums and such, but what items are given developer resources are ultimately up to the product owner.
I'm not blaming the product owner, either. It's certainly possible that this feature just never came to their attention. Perhaps I have only myself to blame for that, thus the rewrite of this post.
I guess first of all, what is this feature that I'm talking about? It's from a Team Super Friends devblog back in October 2012, in the Iterative Work section (I've highlighted the relevant feature):
There are a few additional things we’re looking into as a possible post-Retribution iteration work. Some of that stuff is too early to discuss right now, but here are a few tidbits of what could happen:So, you're going to see the word assume used often throughout the remainder of this post. And yes, you can assume that that makes an ass out of me. Hell, you don't even have to assume it, consider it a fact.
- Structure bounties – this is the ability to put a bounty directly on a structure like POS or POCO. While this is indirectly achieved by the ability to place a bounty on the owning corporation, being able to place it on a structure instead allows for a more directed strategic incentive.
- Private/public bounties – the ability to narrow the selection of who can claim your bounty. This would allow people to have more control over who can reap the benefits of the bounty and gives the receiver confidence that he will be rewarded for his efforts.
- More selective kill right selling – this is similar to the one above, only for kill rights instead of bounties. This basically allows the owner of the kill right to select more carefully who can purchase the kill right.
Now my first assumption, back in October, was that the feature was so marvelous, that it would remain on CCP's radar through October, into November and on through December. That when it came time to figure out what they were going to do for Retribution 1.1, that it would obviously be on the list of development considerations. The other assumption, that it was such an obvious evolution of the bounty system, that it would be a development no-brainer.
Since the feature suggestion was just words in a devblog, it was incorrect to assume that CCP saw the same importance in the feature that I did. For all I know, the feature suggestion was written and then forgotten. I assumed that my understanding of the feature for the bounty system would be CCP's understanding of the feature for the bounty system.
I wrote about the feature several times in the last couple months. Here on the blog. And on the forums. That is no guarantee that any awareness of the feature is raised in CCP headquarters. I've never been one to assume that my blog is read by CCP people. I know that I'm occasionally read (I can see where the pageviews come from), but I don't imagine that I'm regular reading for anyone in Iceland.
So really, that was my first mistake. If I thought the feature was of vital importance to the evolution of the bounty system, then I should have followed up with CCP people. Made sure that awareness of the feature was kept high. When I wrote about it in October, I should have made sure CCP Explorer knew about it. I should have brought it up again in November, and yet again post-Retribution 1.0. Where other people expressed approval and excitement for the feature, I should have pointed out those comments. It's certainly not enough that just I feel it's important, it's vital to point out that a broader base of users feel it is important too.
Since the feature did not get developed for Retribution 1.1, I should probably blame myself, for not ensuring that CCP was kept constantly aware of the feature, and that there was a desire among players to see it given development resources. CCP is kind enough and open enough to give us the tools to communicate with them (Twitter for one), and I certainly failed in using those tools for one of the intended purposes.
So what prompted the silly post, that I'm now rewriting (and which I may include in the comments later, but undecided at the moment), is a Twitter conversation earlier. I was wondering why I hadn't heard anything yet about private bounties for Retribution 1.1, so tossed a tweet to CCP Explorer. I'll include the full conversation here, even though it makes me look like a complete ass. (Bear in mind, that in the intervening months, I'd forgotten that it was a potential feature, and had come to think of it as a planned feature):
@erlendur It was mentioned that specifying corp-only bounty collection was an upcoming feature. Is this still planned for a point release?I won't continue further. Suffice to say, I do manage to make a bigger ass of myself. (One note, when I used the word you in those tweets, I was referring to CCP the organization, not CCP Explorer personally. Though, it's possible he felt that I was not only being an entitled jerk, but attacking him personally.)
@erlendur For instance, I set a bounty on Alliance X, and specify that it can only be collected by folks in my alliance.
@erlendur When I say "corp-only bounty collection", I mean corp/alliance, but shorten due to tweet limitations.
@PoeticStanziel Not that I know of, perhaps @CCP_Tuxford knows.
@erlendur @CCP_Tuxford K. Because this was mentioned in the original Bounty dev blog, as something planned for a point release.
@erlendur @CCP_Tuxford See the section on Iterative Work in this devblog: http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp...
@PoeticStanziel @CCP_Tuxford Not planned; "possible ... iteration work" / "what could happen".
... and here's where I decide to become belligerent and entitled ...
@erlendur @CCP_Tuxford I understand you gave yourself the out to ignore what's written, but you did write it. It became an expectation.
@erlendur @CCP_Tuxford How difficult could it be to make bounties payable to certain corps/alliances? Sounds like an agile short story.
@erlendur @CCP_Tuxford Lesson: never write what could be planned if high probability you'll ignore what you all wrote.
@erlendur @CCP_Tuxford Christ, that was the only part of bounties I found useful and exciting ... and now it's likely not going to happen?
... and then CCP Fozzie steps in ...
@PoeticStanziel @erlendur @CCP_Tuxford This is why we can't have nice things. :( You have to be able to see why this attitude is poisonous.
@PoeticStanziel @erlendur @CCP_Tuxford I'm actually not sure if you're trolling or just high.
Now when Explorer wrote "Not that I am aware of", I should have walked away from the computer. Not let annoyance and irritation get the better of me. It wasn't Explorer that irritated me. If a feature does or does not get on the development plate, it's not his fault. I knew that the feature was not going to appear in Retribution 1.1. CCP Explorer, in my experience, knows pretty much everything that is happening development-wise. So if Explorer was not aware of it being in development, then a 95% chance that it wasn't in development.
This was a feature I'd assumed would appear in Retribution's first point release. It was a feature I was really looking forward too. I planned to use it within Fweddit to motivate us, reward us, against certain Minmatar enemies. That this was not going happen and, well, I was pretty darned annoyed. And it is here that I should have walked away from the computer until such time that I was replying from a rational state, not a state of irritation.
After Explorer's "Not that I know of" reply, I should have gone back, looked for the old devblog first. Refreshed myself on what had been originally written. Upon seeing the word potential, I should have then asked "How might I get this feature some attention, perhaps for Retribution 1.2?" And then explained why I thought it was such an important feature for the bounty system.
Unfortunately, and to my discredit, I did not do that. I did none of the right things, and all of the wrong things.
My hindsight is 20/20. Unfortunately, my in-the-moment sight is nearly blind. I obviously need a better mechanism to recognize when I'm in an emotional state that needs to refrain from communication of any sort.
Fozzie, of course, was right calling out my attitude as poisonous. Me, having the gumption to tell CCP that they shouldn't spitball ideas with the playerbase, because it could lead to expectations and anger and such. That was wrong. And as he pointed out toxic. We should be encouraging CCP to spitball ideas with the players more often. And the players (me, in particular) should understand that if a particularly appealing idea from CCP comes up, then the player should follow-up on that idea with CCP people. To be respectful about discussing the idea, and to understand that no matter how awesome one might think that idea to be, it may not ever see development time. And the player has to be cool with that. Disappointment is okay, acting out like a child as a result of that disappointment and irritation, not so cool. Hell, if a respectful dialogue occurs with a CCP person, the player will probably come to understand why said feature was not given development time, whether that's due to lack of resources, CCP forgetting about the feature, or some aspect of the idea being fundamentally flawed.
Unfortunately, for me, what could have been a useful conversation with CCP Explorer (and perhaps CCP Fozzie and CCP Tuxford) devolved into not much more than a personal tantrum.
So, my humble apologies to CCP Explorer and CCP Fozzie. My disrespect to the both of you was completely and entirely unwarranted. You're both two of my favourite CCP employees. Hell, I gave CCP Fozzie my CCP Employee of the Year Award in December. CCP Explorer was in consideration as well. You're two devs I very much enjoy chatting and joking around with on Twitter. Hopefully, you'll both accept my apology, and we can continue to tweet back and forth in the future, on EVE and non-EVE topics. If you're reticent about that for the next while, that's okay too, and understandable. Hopefully I didn't burn the entire bridge down, that I can repair it.

\o/ I generally expect CCP to "troll the playerbase" with ideas and as you say, "YOINK!" when something good comes along, meanwhile doubling-down on "potentials" that people universally dislike.
ReplyDeleteAt this point, I'm not high, rather pretty sure I'm just poisonous. Or cynical. Perhaps a combination of both.
Did you know that Cynicism was actually a school of philosophy in ancient times, that was eventually absorbed and "blue donuted" into Stoicism? True story, bro. I wasn't there, but there's some cool history books about it. ;-)
There's your daily educational PSA. :-D
"I generally expect CCP to "troll the playerbase" with ideas and as you say, "YOINK!" when something good comes along, meanwhile doubling-down on "potentials" that people universally dislike."
DeleteHAHA! You may be right.
Or it could just be that you're slightly autistic and have not the foggiest idea of how to influence CCP, as evidenced by your entitled attitude on twitter which made you sound like an ass, and prompted Fozzie to tell you to bugger off.
DeleteIts really sad, because your feature you're talking about here is a good one. And yet your attitude makes CCP not want to even talk to you. What is even sadder is that this caustic, entitled, jackass attitude that you think is so edgy and cool is what you demand out of the CSM, and troll them viciously when they don't dance to your little tune. Thank god they don't, because they'd end up as marginalized in CCP's eyes as you have become over the last year.
Entitled how? It was a good idea. They were looking for feedback on those "potential ideas", which they got in a number of places. Then ignored that feedback and dropped the potential idea. And idea that likely wouldn't even take that long to implement, yet would add a world of additional functionality/motivation to corps/alliances with respect to the bounty system.
DeleteI don't believe I was rude in my tweets. Forthright, sure. I was quite disappointed that the potential feature was not followed up by CCP. And that it was dropped without looking into player reactions to it further (and I've yet to see a negative reaction to the idea.)
I'm not sure how being vocally disappointed should upset CCP in the least. They had a great idea in the palm of the their hands. They came up with the idea in the first place. Then they let it slip between their fingers.
For every single feature like this one, there's 20 others that are equally in the bang-for-buck category, which have also been vetted by players, and which also would take a relatively short amount of development time. These merits do not mean that CCP is someone screwing the pooch by not implementing them, though it certainly is a LOT easier to feel that way when its a feature you're passionate about. Welcome to the fickle world of human emotion and the way it taints our perspectives on reality.
DeleteI'm sure you don't mean to be rude. Most people without social skills don't mean to be. But you don't really understand this stuff, and think you're just being the "straightforward guy" when really you're treating people like they've failed when they very well maybe working on a feature that is arguably more important than yours (and others) prized bounty hunting fix.
This is really that simple - there's only one of two things going on here. Either you honestly believe they're fucking around because they didnt fix one thing that was important to you, or you're making it seem like success/failure is the only binary reality and deliberately trolling them when you know full well there might be a perfectly reasonable explanation for CCP not doing this bounty hunting fix right now.
Either way, its no surprise to most normal people reading that conversation that Fozzie asked you if you were trolling, or high. (Though "high" might have been a bit rude, social deficiencies are perfectly natural and common and nothing to be ashamed of.)
Yes, disappointed the feature is not getting implemented. (It's not the end of the world though, nor do I think I characterize it like that.)
DeleteThe post is more a response to being characterized as "high" and poisonous simply because I'm disappointed. If that's the case and he stands by that characterization, then I point him to a 133 page thread of "high" and poisonous people being disappointed on CCP distancing themselves from another fan-favourite, potential feature.
Sorry, but I have to interrupt a minute to lol at the anonyposter complaining about bitterness, entitlement, and potentials for autism spectrum diagnoses in relation to EVE players.
Deletelol Really? I think those adjectives pertain to most of the playerbase, both "ebil PvPer" and "whiney carebear" alike, and to a pretty significant degree.
It's like walking into a Honda dealership and complaining there's Japanese cars all over the lot. ;-)
BTW, what's everybody doing going on about bounty improvements? Shouldn't you guys be on the threadnought QQing about the removal of passive resists for invulns? I mean, speaking of "doubling-down on 'propositions' the playerbase generally dislikes," and all. >:-D
Gonna have to back Anonymous here mate. The exchange you've referenced was less about CCP not delivering on a feature, and more about you being a bit too 'forthright'. There was any number of ways you could've made your point, yet you went with "throw it in their face" and now you're bitching about being told where to stick your opinion? He's right that the sense of entitlement and "expectation = confirmation" that you're engendering with those comments is poisonous.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to have some influence and/or have meaningful exchanges with people you want something from, you need to work on your people skills. You can start with accepting that you're not as important as you seem to think you are.
Fair enough.
DeleteI do not think I'm important, though. I simply thought the feature was important.
You could be, if you learned to empthasize with and read people's social cues and dialogue with them in a respectful fashion. Your big block at the moment is that saying anything nice, or civil, is somehow "being a sycophant" and so you feel the need to :realtalk: everyone to death whether they want to hear it or not. The crusade for truth is as annoying coming from a spergy blogger as it is from a bible-thumping Jesus Freak.
DeleteCase in point - Xander Phoena did an OUTSTANDING job of getting both the CSM and CCP Fozzie to spil a lot more detail than the have previously. He did it by refusing to argue for the sake of arguing, and without constantly calling out treachery around every corner. By maintaining an approachable, friendly demeanor, he got much more out of his guests than he would have be being a dick. That doesn't make him a sycophant, it makes him someone who understands how to change and influence other's behaviour. ;)
With respect to sycophants. I would never characterize Xander's interviews anything of the sort. Being respectful does not equate to sycophantry (that's probably not a word.) He was tough on them and didn't settle for the simple, non-answers.
DeleteSomeone like Arydanika is a sycophant, because her "interviews" are simply 40 minutes of her congratulating the CSM on everything they do. There's not critical analysis from her. Her questions are easy. And she never thinks to delve deeper into any issues. She seems more self-congratulatory that she has CSM members on her show, rather than attempting for any substance with them.
I know what a sycophant is. Dani is one. Xander is not.
And yes, I do see a lot of sycophantic like behaviour from the CSM where CCP is concerned. They're very rarely critical of CCP, and act as their cheerleaders most of the time. They spend most of their time trying not to offend CCP. And whereas you don't want to offend unnecessarily, you don't want to remain uncritical simply because it's the nicer thing to do.
That Xander was able to pull some public criticism from them is much to his credit.
That said, though. You're right about my behaviour in those tweets. I should have stepped back and given my responses more consideration. I wrote from a state of irritation and let that guide all my responses.
Xander was by no means the first to pull public criticism from them, everything said during that podcast had been said before elsewhere publicly, in terms of things that have frustrated them about CCP. You simply turn your nose up at any of the CSM's media appearances that doesn't have a stripey Pony logo.
DeleteBut that's besides the point. I wasn't even calling Xander a sycophant, he obviously isn't, and so your explanation of this was unnecessary. My point is that you're a person who gets an idea in your head, and it sticks, and overrides rational thought. You've been obsessed with this "cheerleader CSM" thing for the last 6 months in a way that bears no statistical reality when compared to any other player's opinion about CCP's performance, and you've repeatedly called them out for lack of criticism without actually articulating the list of all the things they were supposed to slam a fist on the table about and didn't.
And without actually making a single post that backs this notion up with anything close to concrete evidence, you've simply rewarmed the stale phrase over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. Aren't you feeling a little lonely these days being the only person to trumpet this?
Xander certainly seems to understand CSM7's criticism of CCP and where they've applied it historically, and asks many pointed questions about the matter. You simply pretend it never existed, and it's bizarre.
You castigate Dani for never reaching below the surface with her praise, and yet you never reach below the surface when you talk shit. At one point will Xander become a role model for you instead of an underwear model?
Again, completely missing the social cues here. Fozzie is not responding to your disappointment. He is responding to your attempt to hold him accountable for what was merely a possibility at one point. Your aggressive, insulting language (combined with lack of self-awareness that this is how you come across, intentionally or otherwise) is enough of a turn-off that he is literally telling you this makes him and other devs not want to share their ideas.
ReplyDeleteIf you -really- think that all you did was "be disappointed", its time to go seek some professional help. And I mean that because I respect you. You could do so much more to affect other players, the CSM, and CCP, if you just learned some of these basics about empathy and how to respond to cues that your audience (in this case Fozzie, over twitter) is giving you.
One of your new year's resolutions was to do less Spergy posting. This one here is a great example, for exactly the reasons provided.
So, I wrote over the original post, because I didn't want to lose the comments here. They're valuable and instructive.
ReplyDeleteShould I post the original text in a comment here? I'm not sure what value there is to that, other than to immortalize my stupidity. Which I fine with. But is there any other value to posting the original text in a comment (it will lost all of its formatting, unfortunately.)
Thoughts?
Nah, don't bother.
DeleteBut, just remember, Poe, EVE is just a game. If you find yourself getting overwrought, then take a step back, a deep breath and a chill pill. :)
Save your stress for something in RL that truly deserves it.
I'm shocked that you didn't censor these comments. They are so spot on.
ReplyDeleteReactions like yours are why CCP doesn't want to talk about features before they are locked into doing them. This is a huge problem, and it seems like every time CCP experiments with putting a little future info out there they get attacked.
I rarely censor stuff.
DeleteThe only time you've heard of me censoring anything is via Hans ... because it's fun trolling him ... not too mention wasting his time. If I have an anti-Hans post up, then he can find his own venue through which to defend his e-honour.
Your original interaction is a perfect example of why lots of developers and publishers do not spitball ideas with the player-base anymore. Some developers in some games I play do not even talk to players anymore and some developer houses have it as a policy now.
ReplyDeleteThere are tons of reasons developers/publishers don't implement a feature. Why risk a bunch of drama over items on a list of 20 when you know you are only going to deliver 5?
Being a Canadian, you're prob more well-versed in "political correctness" doctrine than I, Stan. I used to say there was a PC-Police "Miranda" warning, that went something like: "You have the right to remain silent, anything you say can and will offend _someone_. Should you chose to waive this right, expect lots of hate and vitriol, and accusations of being un-empathetic, from people who're ironically being un-empathetic themselves."
ReplyDeleteDid you call them names, question their mothers' lineage, or accuse them of fornication with porcine species? If you did, I didn't see it. If so, then yeah, you were an asshat and overstepped bounds, and they'd have every right to tell you to go fuck yourself.
Were you demanding? Yep. Want to see that same level of "demanding" on an even more frequent basis? Go work in a busy restaurant or department store for a day, you'll see MUCH worse than you pulled, I guarantee it.
I wonder how many of those people calling you out for being an entitled, special snowflake, etc, etc, go to a restaurant and bitch at the hostess about how long the wait is, or get a "medium" steak when they ordered "medium well", and bitch their server out whilst stiffing her tip.
All wondering aside, if they do, they're certainly not going to fess up to their hypocrisy here.
Rather, I'd say that if you were _that_ emotional, and managed to not name-call, swear, and question their genetic heritage, you actually did pretty goddamned good.
Then again, I'm the guy who swears and questions people's birth patents on a regular basis, mostly when I'm not even emotional at all.
I think ya just got trolled hard, Stan, and somewhere there's someone loling and pointing at their monitor going "tee-hee, I did that!"
It is good that you do have a softer side, though, you mean lil propaganda machine you. ;-)
Allowing bounties payment to only some people is for sure a good idea, I hope they'll do it soon.
ReplyDeleteThe bounties on structures seems pretty nice also, but when you think about it there's a big issue ; it would need a crazy high bounty to motivate a 200 men fleet to go for it... sure if it's a capfleet they will be way less, but it's common work for cap to do that, so they don't need to be motivated that much as subcap pilots.
What would be pretty useful however, is the killmails for reinforced strcutures that was talked about months ago. All alliances have tracking systems for fleet attendance, and killmails to check who shot the strcuture, but it's way harder to check who was here to reinforce something, while it's even more boring to do so.
Tweak tweak tweak.... and nothing new... yawns at CCP
ReplyDeleteWormholes were the last great expansion so many years ago.. sadly
Thanks for bringing this to my attention. What a great idea to have coded into the game. It would make mercenary contracts, to my mind, a more formal affair in the game. You could make a "courier" contract for a POS to be taken out, a certain amount of financial loss and have the funds handled via the contract system. Sounds like an instigator/enabler situation to me. Of course it doesn't handle every situation, but that is life.
ReplyDeleteThanks for you writing. It's ok to be passionate even when sometimes your passion makes you an ass. You owned it.
Keep up the great blog.
I think the big problem with your attitude much of the time, Poetic, is that you make great assumptions about ease/difficulty of programming that you really don't seem to know much of anything about. You talk all the time about programming methodology, assuming that CCP aren't in a position to know how to develop their own game, that they're going down the "wrong path" ... why? Because they're incredibly stupid and don't know how to operate their own project? But you do, because you're in such a great position to make judgments about these things?
ReplyDeleteI get that you're trying to be "inquisitive," and to be an "exploratory," "idea guy." But sometimes you seem to get it in your head that you know a lot more about how this shit works than you actually do. And that's really obnoxious. I hope you can understand why that sort of armchair nonsense would get on a dev's nerves.
It takes a real man (or woman) to admit when they're wrong. Respect for making this posting.
ReplyDeleteEvery game dev gets a lot of crap from players and being more or less open about changes doesn't change it one bit. What poetic is right about, though, is that the bounty system needs iteration just as urgently as FW did when first introduced, simply because it is a good foundation that could be great.
ReplyDelete