What do all the small changes add up to though?
Mining barge buffs? No big deal. It's just a small change, you can still gank miners, it's just a little harder now, a little more expensive.
Removing insurance on highsec ganks? No big deal. It's just a small change. Gankers should only be profiting on their kills, not the loss of their ships.
CONCORD warp disrupting you from across a system, the moment you open fire. No big deal. It's just a small change. Gankers should only be able to kill on a single grid.
The Crimewatch suspect flag. No big deal. It's just a small change, sure it's harder to make a living on highsec PvP due to suspect flagging when looting the booty. Nobody liked freighter ganking anyhow.
The killright system? No big deal. It's just a small change. Dirty pirates deserve to be free-for-alled by everyone in a system. Their life should be tougher.
The PvP safety. No big deal. It's just a small change. And it stops carebears from doing silly things like PvP.
The dueling system? No big deal. Sure it's consensual PvP, but it's a small change, and outside parties can still get involved.
Hell, I'm guilty of accepting some of these small changes. Mining barge buffs. Removal of insurance payouts. Even I said of those things "No big deal." Small changes can be deceptive.
What little changes are on the way, new little things that will be no big deal, because they're minor changes when viewed in the moment? Perhaps next up will be the inability to drag CONCORD from one grid to another. Perhaps miners will be able to call CONCORD to their grid at the first sign of suspicious activity? Who knows? But there are still lots of small changes that can be made that give the illusion of being able to engage in the old activities, while effectively neutering them forever. Ask Suddenly Ninjas or Ministry of Love about this.
Every little change that comes is no big deal, because every previous little change has already been accepted. Add up all the little changes, and what has highsec become? Is the risk still in line with the reward? Is there any point in doing certain activities outside of highsec now? Mining? Industry? Missioning and other forms of PvE?
I once had a dev tell me "If there was an overall policy to create a near-PvP-free highsec, I would know." Pre-2011, perhaps a dev would know. Post-2011, would a dev have any more of a clue than the players? The leak of the Fearless newsletter and Hilmar's email was from inside the company, after all. It wouldn't be surprising if that event alone changed a lot about CCP corporate culture. Do the people at the top of the pyramid still trust the people in the middle and at the bottom of the pyramid? After summer 2011, do the higher-ups still trust those down the ladder with information on the future direction of their premiere title?
Now, I don't blame devs for any of these small changes. They don't set future policy. Their job is to code the features as decided by the producers. That's it. They do a bang-on job of releasing their features. Devs are not to blame for the initial crappiness of war declarations or faction warfare, they coded those puppies as they were instructed to. Those features were released as the producers wanted. Devs are the foot soldiers, you don't blame the foot soldiers for the machinations of the generals.
Hell, the current producers can tell us, until they are blue in the face, that they aren't going to carebear highsec more than they already have. And we should probably believe them. But that means nothing three, four, five years down the line when some new producer is in place. (Producers don't tend to stick long in the role at CCP.) No particular direction is guaranteed, and the promises of one producer are forgotten with the next. And once all these new little things are in place and accepted, they're an invitation to anyone coming later to expand and develop them further.
So now we have a dueling system coming tomorrow. On the face of it, it really is no big deal. It's net effect will probably be to increase PvP in highsec (even if all that increase is of a consensual variety.) But one step back, is no big deal, if you're already planning the two steps forward. This is a consensual PvP system. The first for EVE Online. Once players accept this new system, is this where it stops? Or does acceptance breed more of the same down the line? Expansions to the system? Perhaps new developments in consensual PvP result in less PvP down the line. So more PvP now results in less non-consensual PvP down the line, a fair trade off if the eventual highsec goal is the illusion of non-consensual, while consensual is the norm.
I have no idea if there's an overall company vision to carebear up highsec, to develop more consensual PvP systems down the line. I don't know these things. You don't know these things. But better to remain vigilant on each and every new little thing that changes the non-consensual balance in highsec. Best to call attention to it now. Make people think about what's happening to their game now, because doing so down the line will be too late.
What is highsec going to look like two years from now? Will it be recognizable? Perhaps, if we start telling CCP "enough is enough" now. Or perhaps it will be completely unrecognizable if we continue to accept all these small changes as no big deal.
The only part of the dueling thing I like is that I'll once again be able to web warp my freighter alt. Outside of that, it smacks too much of other themepark games to me.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand why people get upset about the dueling system. I been playing since '09 and since I can remember, people have been doing prearranged can flips to fight in hi-sec since before me. This dueling system just makes that easier. It's something we been doing as players anyways. And we're always harping on ccp to make the things we already do better, why the flak now?
ReplyDeleteDon't get me wrong, I don't like the direction a lot of these other changes. And the dueling system they're giving us now (as an assist to what we already do) to some perverted things down the road. But that remains to be seen I think.
As I said "On the face of it, it really is no big deal." I'm curious/reticent where it will eventually lead.
DeleteI dont actually take it as "really not a big deal"... I take it as rebirthing an emergent type of gameplay they had to kill with the new Crimewatch system due to technical reasons (not design or production reasons). To make my point clear, I dont think this will eventually lead to anything as its more of a fix than a brand new feature.
DeleteDueling in Eve online has existed since can flipping, now you just have a proper system behind it.
Just in case, Im all for non consensual PvP and cant really stomach more than 2 weeks in highsec at a time.
"As I said 'On the face of it, it really is no big deal.' I'm curious/reticent where it will eventually lead."
DeleteThat's a retarded argument. You can pretty much take anything on the patch notes and shout "you think this is no big dead! But it'll doom us all!" Myrmidon getting 100 bandwidth is no big deal you say? Just you wait, one day carebears will be flying carriers in highsec.
"Hell, I'm guilty of accepting some of these small changes. Mining barge buffs. Removal of insurance payouts. Even I said of those things "No big deal." Small changes can be deceptive."
ReplyDeleteI seem to remember a nice big forum argument that we had over the killright system and Suspect flagging in the lead up to Retribution (where you came out for them) as well. I was so lonely in that thread.
But that just reinforces your point that we do have to watch the "small" changes and pay careful attention to the emergence of trends in those changes.
At the same time, there have been numerous buffs to HS safety over the years, and not a single overall nerf to it (that is, an update whose set of features, on the balance, tend to make HS less safe). So I think the trend is established.
The slope is there. The only question is whether or not that slope is, in fact, slippery.
I don't think I was ever in favour of suspect flagging (in its current incarnaton.) I can recall being quite against it, especially the free-for-all aspect.
DeleteAs for killrights ... I recall laughing at the idea, since they're relatively easy to shed with an alt. And the free-for-all aspect of killrights bugged me too.
I could very easily be mistaken as to my recollection of who was arguing against me in that thread.
DeleteI've had ever so many forum arguments.
Meanwhile, on the flip side ... we had the dessie buff making suicide ganking far easier to pull off, people calling for change to the RR mechanics because of the lack of fabled 1v1's, a streamlined Crimewatch 2.0 with low sec benefits, removal of dec shields, restrictions on ally system, removal of locking an aggressor into a perma war, reduction in the war dec fee. That's just the things I can think of right off the top my head (it is very late here & 'can't be arsed syndrome' is kicking in fast).
ReplyDeleteDon't you believe the changes you have listed are all just about balancing in light of other changes/benefits within the game as a whole?
"a streamlined Crimewatch 2.0 with low sec benefits"
DeleteBenefits to lowsec do not cancel out anything Crimewatch did to highsec.
"reduction in the war dec fee"
What? Massive increase, you mean.
I did not mention the wardec system, because it is still currently broken ... and since CCP did not spend any time fixing it for winter expansion, I think it's future may be in some doubt. It certainly didn't achieve anything CCP wanted it to achieve (the ally system was there to protect carebears, but the players did not use it as CCP intended.)
So are you going to just ignore all the other facts because they don't happen to fit with your world view?
DeleteA Thorax pre-Cruicible cost less to lose than an equivalent post-crucible Dassy.
DeleteLS benefits have nothing to do with the topic of making HS safer.
Removal of Dec shields, but introduction of size scaling and a 5fold increase to the base cost to compensate. (And still nothing to prevent or hinder dropping corp to escape a dec).
Changes to the Ally system was because CCP initially wanted a "merc market"
Really, you're going to class fixing the broken wardec locking "feature" as a safety nerf?
What reduction to the war fee? It was ~5m now it's 50m. Making a new corp is 15m. It costs more to dec a corp than it does for them to disband and create a new corp.
Or are you going to just ignore all the other facts because they don't happen to fit with your world view?
What's a Dassy?
DeleteHeh, LS benefits was an aside whilst mentioning Crimewatch 2.0. Tbh, you might be right on war dec costs - from memory my understanding was that it was cheaper to wardec. I stand corrected if this is not the case.
Meh, it isn't me that is arguing a "no big deal - or is it?" position, in effect suggesting safety creep into hi sec. vOv
Remember that in lore, hi sec is not a lawless environment. Both CONCORD and faction police are their to respond accordingly. There will be consequences for your actions that goes beyond a simple sec status hit. If you don't like getting a suspect flag for attacking another player or providing RR to an aggressor AND having the possibility of a white knight blow your shit up, then get out of high sec. Pretty simple really or is it that in your word view you feel entitled to mitigate risk behind previously broken game mecanics vOv
From everything I've experienced, Crimewatch 2.0 offers far more benefits to low-sec PVPers than it takes away from them. It was a much-needed update that has been beneficial to piracy and FW, especially with having clear timers.
ReplyDeleteDueling has always been in the game. Now, it's just slightly easier.
I do see your perspective on barge/insurance changes that made ganking less feasible. That said, I think suicide ganking doesn't even qualify as PvP, so I personally couldn't care less.
"From everything I've experienced, Crimewatch 2.0 offers far more benefits to low-sec PVPers than it takes away from them."
DeleteI never said it did not. Crimewatch 2.0 was pretty great to lowsec. But it worked to curb much PvP from highsec.
Can flipping was never consensual dueling, it was one character vs a corp.
DeleteWhat was fun about it was you could steal AND maybe get some pew.. it was "emergent gameplay" that could escalate.
Now you will see people spamming duel requests that will just get blocked.
Thing is nearly all of these small changes were in response to emergent gameplay. The grid thing was fixed after a player wrote about being able to gank for 40+ seconds while kiting CONCORD from one end of a belt to the other. High sec was just as carebear before when no one knew how to do it.
ReplyDeleteMining barges got buffed in response to Hulkaggeddon's growing and growing. What started off as a Goon gimmick became permanent paid and reimbursable.
This isn't carebear creep, highsec is far more dangerous now than it was when I started in 2009. Players get better at punishing highsec carebearing and dev bandaids to keep an approximate status quo.
Boomeranging had been known and used for years before Crucible, and the line had been "so long as you don't use it to kite out your GCC, it's fine."
DeleteDueling has been in the game for years; but I suppose you've forgotten about canflip dueling. Lots of tears about a system that has been in the game for a very long time. There's no plan to implement arenas, or to prevent people from exploiting the dueling system. There are many, many exploits to the current system, if you'd actually stop and think for a brief moment.
ReplyDeleteMining barges were buffed because before, it was possible to face-roll suicide ganks for profit regardless of a miner's actions. And miners continue to be ganked and extorted, more so than two years ago. So much for high-sec being safer. So there's absolutely no reason for you to cry. Maybe instead of writing increasingly long-winded whines, you should think about why you can't adapt.
Concord mechanics were adjusted to patch up exploits. Working as intended. Because heaven forbid you have to buy more than a single Catalyst to clear a belt of Exhumers.
Before kill rights, a high-sec 'pirate' incurred zero risk and zero cost (aside from ammo) when baiting or ganking; their 'profession' involved about as much risk as running an overtanked mission bot. Now they face some risk, and can no longer dictate the exact terms of every engagement and disengage at will. But I suppose risk in your world is only good if its borne by someone else.
In short, risk in high-sec has increased rather than decreased; and it is now distributed more evenly.
"Dueling has been in the game for years; but I suppose you've forgotten about canflip dueling."
DeleteThat's non-consensual still. There was no guarantee after a canflip that you weren't going to get dropped by the other dude's corp. It was never a fixed 1v1 situation. Any honour in such duels was at the behest of the players involved, not because mechanics implemented that honour for them.
***
"And miners continue to be ganked and extorted, more so than two years ago. So much for high-sec being safer."
Do you have the numbers on that?
***
"Risk in high-sec has increased rather than decreased."
If people can earn money (mining, missioning) in high-sec with decreased risk of losing anything, then the net effect is a decrease in overall risk.
"This is a consensual PvP system. The first for EVE Online."
ReplyDeleteExcept for the many consensual PvP systems that have all existed before like:
Can flipping,
Mutual wardecks,
Faction warfare...
Can flipping changed scope with Crimewatch changes in Retribution. This meant that the already existing 1v1 consensual PvP mechanic became pretty much untenable. Duelling has now given us our much used mechanic back. So instead of:
"Once players accept this new system, is this where it stops?"
another way of phrasing it could be
"CCP have just replaced a highly used OLD feature that they removed 4 months ago. Great!."
Also let me tweak your reply above of
"...Crimewatch 2.0 ...worked to curb much PvP from highsec."
to something more accurate
"Crimewatch 2.0 worked to inform people much more clearly of the consequences of their actions and as a result, reduced non-consensual PvP in high-sec"
The sentiment of your post is valid, but your reasoning and flagrant conspiracy theorising is a tad flat. Still, I enjoyed the read. Thanks.
"Can flipping,
DeleteMutual wardecks"
These are consensual only in the sense that players agree to it ... otherwise, there are no specific rules that limit the engagement to anything honourable. Mutual wardecs are there only to eliminate the wardec costs. If one side doesn't want to be wardecced, there is nothing they can do to stop themselves from being wardecced.
"Faction warfare"
This is a strange beast, for sure. When signing on, you're certainly agreeing to be attackable by the opposing side, but there are many circumstance where you'd rather you had the choice not to be attacked (i.e. plexing for LP, missioning, hauling small amounts of items between stations.) It's kind of an amalgam between consensual and non-consensual. Faction warfare certainly has to mechanics to ensure fair or balanced or even honourable fights.
Most consensual systems exist to ensure some level playing field. Nothing in EVE, until the dueling system, codified anything approaching a level playing field.
Have you missed some dev blogs maybe?
Delete"[previously] there are no specific rules that limit the engagement to anything honourable."
and
"Nothing in EVE, until the dueling system, codified anything approaching a level playing field."
Would lead me to believe you have (or haven't understood the details of duelling).
It's been clearly stated in the dev blog ( http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=74208 ) that:
"Note that there is no special exclusivity or isolation from outside interference just because a duel has been agreed"
You can still drop a pair of scimitars in and make the duel very very dishonourable, which is exactly what I intend to do in a few hours as people will be thinking it's just purely a 1v1 against my under-powered ship.
If you're looking for kitten to stamp on, it's the Retribution 1.0 Crimewatch changes that you're after which deal out suspect flags with gay abandon, not duelling in Retribution 1.1 ;-)
It's still basically 1v1. You can bring off-rid boosting and or RR ships ... so can your opponent. Outside of that, no other combat ships can intervene (except as a gank, which would bring them the penalty of CONCORD).
DeleteI read the blog. It's not so much outside interference that's available as it is outside assistance.
This frog is jumping out.
ReplyDeleteSome things have also moved in the other direction.
ReplyDeleteMost obviously, the bounty system makes some ganks now profitable much more quickly (very important for freighter gangks).