I'm not anti-carebear. I realize most people misinterpret my ranting, believing that I despise people who don't engage in direct ship versus ship PvP. That's not true. I'm cool with people who just want to mission. Or people who just want to mine. Or people who just want to attend to their POS, manufacturing stuff.
I understand what the sandbox is all about. People get to choose what they want to do in EVE Online. They get to build their own little sand castle in the sandbox.
The sandbox is a metaphor for real life. Nobody gets to go through life in a bubble. We are interacting with people everyday, in some form or another, whether we want to or not. Interactions are inescapable. Like life, like EVE, in a sense.
So, what gets my goat are the people (and these people are a very small subset of the entire EVE population) who feel that they deserve their own little sandbox, and that they should be allowed to dictate all of their interactions with the rest of the playerbase. They want to play EVE as though it were a solo game. These are anti-sandbox people, people who have no clue whatsoever the definition of a sandbox game. When asked why they should have their way? Invariably the response is that EVE will die; non-consensual PvP is ruining the game; EVE will become unprofitable if this behaviour is allowed to continue.
And yet (and this is what bothers me the most), you see CCP and the CSM starting to buy into this argument. Hell, you even have Trebor suggesting that maybe there is an argument to be made for having some PvP-free zones in the game. Trebor argues for consensual wardecs only.
There's no evidence that non-consensual interactions are destroying EVE. EVE has been a harsh and unrelenting game for ten years. If that particular style of interaction were killing EVE Online, it would have died long ago. Certainly, it causes some cancelling of subscriptions. But is that number particularly high? And is it worth catering to those people?
I don't even believe the anti-sandbox player is (or would be) a long-term player, no matter the amount of development CCP threw at them. Why? The anti-sandbox player is anti-social, and the entirety of their gameplay is to engage EVE's PvE mechanics. PvE and anti-social play are not sustainable.
Let's be honest. The PvE in EVE is terrible. It's lacks any sort of challenge. It's repetitive. It's not immersive. It's boring as hell. People that want to play PvE and nothing else, who want no interaction with other people unless it is on their terms, these people are not long for this game. You could turn highsec into a completely PvP-free zone and these people would still not be long for this game. There's only so many times you can do Damsel in Distress before you start looking for a game with a little something more to offer. There are many PvE oriented MMOs that do PvE three-orders of magnitude better than EVE Online.
I need to differentiate between your normal EVE carebear and the anti-sandbox player. There are players who do spend the majority of their time in PvE pursuits, who tend to avoid PvP, and who are long-term players. What makes these players different from the anti-sanbox crowd is that they understand and accept that EVE is a game of interaction. They understand that other players may come along at any time to knock down some section of their sandcastle. Their acceptance is why they remain. They relish the extra danger, the unknown, the unpredictability of the players around them. The PvE is still boring as hell, but it's spiced up with the unknown variable that is the rest of the playerbase. I'm am totally cool with these people. These are carebears I respect. These are dudes who get involved with the game, who interact with other players, who are involved in the social fabric of the game.
The anti-sandbox players? They're about as anti-social as they come. EVE is a social game. It's the social game that even makes EVE work. Without the social aspect, what are you left with? A bunch of spreadsheets and some really shitty PvE mechanics. Players that want to be left alone, that don't want to interact, these are not CCP's core audience. These are short-term players at best. Very little effort should be put into accommodating the demands of these people. No effort at all, actually.
CCP should be figuring out what type of player stays with the game for three, four, five or more years. That's where the development dollars should be headed. Pleasing those people. Don't waste time and energy trying to please a subscriber who's only going to be subscribed for six months, a year, a year and half at most. No matter what CCP does to try to please them, they'll move on to something else before too long. The only thing that will get those players to stay is the PvE, and EVE is never going to have PvE that can challenge the World of Warcrafts, or the Guild War 2s, the Lord of the Rings Onlines, or the Teras. Where EVE thrives is in the player content, the stories and narratives we create for ourselves. These anti-sandbox people, they create nothing, they give nothing to the game, nobody even knows they exist, except for their complaining.
EVE Online has slowly grown its playerbase over ten years because it's been focusing development on a particular type of player. EVE has been retaining those players. Don't start believing that you've been focusing on the wrong player type all these years. You've been focusing on the exact right type of player. Some of us are PvPers. Some of us are carebears. Some of us a mix of in-between. The long-term player is not anti-sandbox.

I would say there is no true way of playing the game solo anymore. Even a mission runner that logs on only at weekends, doesnt interact with any players in space/local/corp chat etc is still reliant to some extent on other people indirectly, through the purchase of ammo, ships and modules. However their contribution to the game is small, but i don't think it should be ignored. Effort (not however at the expensive of features for the majority) should be put into trying to involve them more in the sandbox. In my mind a TOTAL overhaul of the PVE mission system would be one way of doing this.
ReplyDeleteIn my mind the missions that you run should have a generally more involved storyline running from level 1 missions all the way up to level 4, or even level 5. A continuing theme, with optional unrelated side quests. Increasing the difficulty of these missions, to make them almost undoable alone would give these solo players the kick in the backside to venture into local and corp chat and ask for help, hopefully to the point where they regularly fleet with players.
Additionally ripping out the current starting NPC corps and splitting them down into much much smaller groups where people can freely chat would also help this rather than the overwhelming noise from certain players dominating a 300-400 plus chat room!
Excellent points here. Like Poetic pointed out, EVE’s PvE is mostly abysmal and outdated, but where we diverge is that I see no value in simply throwing up our hands and saying “its never going to be as good as the other MMO’s” when effort could be (and should be) invested in overhauling it and bringing it up to speed with time.
DeleteAnyone remember those static DED complexes that were “removed” from lowsec with Retribution? This was PvE content moved to the exploration system, and yet it was the PvP crowd that lamented the loss the most. Further evidence of the crucial role PvE content plays can be found by observing the transformative effect that the simple adjustments made to the plexing content in Faction Warfare had on the PvP culture that was built around them. Pirates are still miserable that there really isn’t much to pirate (in the purest sense) in lowsec, a problem I attribute as much to the state of the PvE content there as anything to do with Crimewatch. Farms and Fields? Small-scale objectives and conflict drivers in 0.0? More problems that also involve PvE content as part of the solution package.
It may seem counterintuitive, but I see as much value added to EVE’s long-term sustainability through giving regular attention to PvE content, on par with Fozzie’s ship rebalancing efforts. The key is in thoroughly understanding the value of PvE-as-conflict-driver, and building that into the content as a core design value regardless of what level security of space it resides in.
I can't imagine having to PVE yet alone choosing it as a 'fun' thing to do.
ReplyDeleteYou are correct good sir, as a long term player who enjoys the social side of the game immensely I agree with you.
ReplyDeleteI want to know when I undock that no, I am not completely safe. Indeed, when living in nullsec I am always wary and uncomfortable in hisec when I visit trade hubs and such.
However, CCP is a business and businesses are driven by an ever increasing need for profit.
All the changes to hisec mechanics are pointing towards more and more protection of this "small" group of loners.
Only thing I see as a major difference of opinion between your good self and CCP is the size of that group.
Reality has absolutely no regard for anyones wishes and it never will.
Eve will continue to change, that change is a 400 ton train and if you are determined to stand on the tracks to make it stop ...
Poetic, can you please tell us who you're talking about here? Because I'm not even sure I accept the foundational premise of this post, which is that there are legions of carebears complaining, screaming at the top of their lungs, for EVE to become a game of 100% consensual PVP. I'm not sure I've ever actually seen such an argument floated in seriousness, with any sort of numbers or voices backing it up. I don't doubt that you'd be able to fish around and find a post in which a carebear makes this argument. But I defy you to find a post in which a carebear makes that argument (for 100% consensual PVP) and a significant chorus--one which justifies the level of urgency with which you address this issue regularly--arrives to back it up.
ReplyDeleteBecause my own personal assessment of the community forces me to conclude that you're building up a pretty big strawman here. The loudest chorus in the game are those who imagine that this cabal of carebears exists, and spend their time shouting down a specter of their own creation. They are so skeptical of CCP's development motives that they have dreamed up an enemy among the playerbase that they can use as a bludgeon to pre-emptively beat CCP into submission over anything in the funnel which they perceive may not be 100% in line with their sensibilities. It's a chorus of exaggerators and overreactors, who crave drama and cream over false controversies.
I don't say there are legions either.
Delete"So, what gets my goat are the people (and these people are a very small subset of the entire EVE population) ..."
These people are loud, though. Read the forums. And if you look at Trebor's CSM platform, he's listening to them as though they're a much larger body of the population.
That's what I'm saying: I do read the forums, and I absolutely do not see what you're talking about. That's why I'm asking you to substantiate the basic premise for your argument, which is that you actually have a group to argue against in the first place. Because a carebear bitching after somebody ganked his mining vessel != "I want consensual-only PVP in all of New Eden." And if you could please point out, as well, where Trebor says that he supports this illusory argument (and by that, I do not mean an exaggerated, self-serving "interpretation" which extrapolates that conclusion because it's what you want to believe, for online pissing/drama purposes), that would be very nice. I've read his platform and cannot find evidence of it. Furthermore, if you can find this apparently invisible pledge of allegiance to the "anti-sandbox" carebears by Trebor, please explain how that would even make the slightest bit of difference? Trebor cannot determine the direction of CCP's development.
DeleteI concur with anon.
DeletePoetic, it looks as though you've made an entire post about stomping on something that doesn't actually exist.
"and these people are a very small subset of the entire EVE population"
OK, so this question still holds true though: Where are they?
You either have verifiable evidence that they exist and that they are organised sufficiently that there is a threat, or you don't. So far you haven't produced anything and it smells very much like a straw man.
So what gets your goat so bad you will rant on and on and on on your blog, in forums and in comments on other blogs... so bad that you will join with the likes of J315, so bad that you will spend hours typing up massive long posts full of justification against, as you yourself put it;
Delete"...a very small subset of the entire EVE population..."
So are we to assume that if, as your quote infers, that the 'vast majority' of players in EvE are carebearing in an 'acceptable' way to you or are playing EvE the way you feel is correct and acceptable, as you say;
I'm cool with people who just want to mission. Or people who just want to mine. Or people who just want to attend to their POS, manufacturing stuff.
If you are not anti-carebear... then you justify spending all this time and effort against... what? A few hundred EvE players? Maybe a few thousand at most? Really? Because they piss you off personally? On an ambiguous 'it just aint right' kinda way. And this is in a true 'sandbox' game, which you yourself say that you;
"...understand what the sandbox is all about. People get to choose what they want to do in EVE Online."
So, just so I really understand your position, ...people get to choose what they want to do in EvE... 'as long as it does not piss you off', do I have that right?
So you are devoting your blog and voice and all this energy against a 'small minority of players' who just want to play the game their way. You don't even say they are directly disturbing your game, or trying to change the way YOU play or anything.. they just don't play the way YOU feel they should be, and they have the effrontery to do this in a real sandbox MMOG where people get to choose what they do.
Huh... I had no idea logic was so... illogical.
People want to have PvP free zones? Well maybe CCP should launch a new kind of server, call it the Sing-X Server. With really NO player interaction. No player driven markets, no PvP, and no one who wants to buy your stuff.
ReplyDeleteI guess I get your point with the anti-sandbox players. But I think the majority of carebears don't fall under that group. Mission runners who just enjoy the sounds of spaceship guns (eve really has sounds! its not a lie) like the feeling of flying a ship are just a part of this game as everyone else. Whether they are needed or not is IMO not arguable. Without them Eve High sec would be empty.
And any development done to bring more of this players into the game is good. CCP shouldn't be afraid of improving PvE. Maybe they can't compete with WoW or Tera but you know what? Both of this don't have spaceships! And some day a few of this players start to look into PvP and other emergent game play.
Those who like to play this as a semi solo game could be sucked in through deep content and high faction association. Injecting them with patriotism and then offering them the way of FW. Currently your Military starter agent tells you to go there but the rookie doesn't have any clue about the factions.
There is no play style not good for the game and your called anti social player is very rare (maybe a bit more common on the forums). Eve neither needs a PvP free zone, nor does it need more PvP in High sec. It needs deeper PvE content to suck players deep into the story and place the feeling of being part of something into them. And then it shows the way to like minded groups of players. Like becoming part of a pirate faction, or a low sec industrial enterprise.
Some people need time before they interact with others. Encurage them to do so, but don't push them too fast in that direction.
As a side note: I would like to see a "map editor" like the one for starcraft (one) where you could design your own multi stage missions with different decissions to be made... would be hell of work to get those stuff tested but after all players could design there one stories or Missions. Either as promotion for there corp/alliance or just for e-fame of beeing a good mission designer.
Chiana, you said... "There is no play style not good for the game... Agreed.
Delete...and your [so] called anti social player is very rare (maybe a bit more common on the forums)."
Uh, I believe the ones on the forums are the more social or trollish (a social activity, hard to troll solo) players... I believe from my personal experience that the true carebear solo player does not follow blogs, post on forums and all in all have very little to no knowledge of all the furor over 'them' as twere, in the forum and blogshere... and they could care less, they are playing a game and don't see how and why as any of anyone else's business.
I know a few true solo carebears (mining, industry, market & PvE only)... IE the true anti-social lone wolf playertype... and that is exactly how they play. They don't read blogs, ignore local and see Poe and the Gang as just another PvE element they have to play around. And they like it that way.
Come to think of it, I winder if that's what has Poe's panties inna bunch.
Tell that to Gevlon Goblin with his "Eve is best played solo" theories.
ReplyDeleteHow many play the same single player game for 10 years?
ReplyDeleteHow many will still play EVE if the social part will not be there. EVE is social. EVE is interaction beyond what any computer generated scenario can bring.
As a long time player, (some 9 years) I've seen and agree almost all of your points. Eve just sucks as a single player game.
ReplyDeleteThat said some time should be spent on updating the missions to reflect the current state of the rock/paper/scissors of PvP, (without the capitals ;-)) and expand it so that there are a couple of missions that require 2 players. They can always be rejected.
Its not like this wasn't the case a very long time back. I can remember at least two missions where you had to have logistics help to complete them. One was a story line "Save the girl from the blood alter sacrifice" which spawned a number, (8-10) 7 mill battleships that would make short work of solo battleship, (pre-faction / T2 BSes). Of course it was probably withdrawn due to farming but it was a challenge to get in there and out for you were over powered.
As a long time player, (some 9 years) I've seen and agree almost all of your points. Eve just sucks as a single player game.
ReplyDeleteThat said some time should be spent on updating the missions to reflect the current state of the rock/paper/scissors of PvP, (without the capitals ;-)) and expand it so that there are a couple of missions that require 2 players. They can always be rejected.
Its not like this wasn't the case a very long time back. I can remember at least two missions where you had to have logistics help to complete them. One was a story line "Save the girl from the blood alter sacrifice" which spawned a number, (8-10) 7 mill battleships that would make short work of solo battleship, (pre-faction / T2 BSes). Of course it was probably withdrawn due to farming but it was a challenge to get in there and out for you were over powered.
I have to completely disagree with you on this for many reasons.
ReplyDeleteAt the simpliest level anyone who interacts with the world impacts it in someway - either it be buying modules, selling ore, running missions or PvP - its all a part of the same eco system and because of that eco system each play system is valuable.
If we didn't have the carebears who mission run all the time rigs would be massively expensive due to the poor supply of savlage that mission runners provide.
Without miners or other mission runners refining modules into minerals then again ships and modules would be much more expensive and that value would then have a knock on affect to PvP as the consequence of failure becomes much larger and if it becomes unmanageable finanically then PvP players will either attempt to reduce the cost by flying cheaper ships or simply stop PvPing all together.
Everyone who interacts with everyone else is making a story - even if its just someone loaning a noob some isk to buy a new ship could be the start of a story which leads that noob to experiance something great. The story itself is only a personal story and will never make the press or be seen as an interesting story but its a story none the less.
Even mission runners who run L4s with friends are creating stories - they are grouping together, trading fits, running missions and having a good time. Again its a personal story and doesn't ripple through the game as much as a massive pvp battle but its still just as important as its the social interaction that gives players the desire to keep playing the game.
Yes I agree that solo players may have very limited interaction with the world but that is their own choice - if they want to shut out the world then thats fine because its a sandbox and they play how they want to.
The game will never consist of just one play style, even if the game is overpopulated with more of one type than other it doesn't mean that the game is unbalanced or uninteresting and those players who want to do something different will do it anyway while the players who want to stay in high sec can do that too and neither need to cross each others path - the universe will never know the difference or care that they never met.
I agree that the PvE content (excluding insursions) is poor but its not a reason to remove it, its a reason to improve it and make it how it SHOULD be.
By your logical I should have left the game years ago because I fit into your carebear model; but I still have a lot of love for the game because of the interaction with the community, the meta game, the theorycrafting, the news, the politics & my friends in game.
I don't just play EVE for the PvE I play it for all of this and more and that is why EVE is a truely unique game!
"If we didn't have the carebears who mission run all the time rigs would be massively expensive due to the poor supply of savlage that mission runners provide."
DeleteOr, alternately, you could describe the same situation by saying that zombie mission-running carebears run so many missions that salvaging wrecks isn't even worth it for a skilled player anymore on an isk/hour basis, and that these carebears have ruined salvaging for these players. This duality of perspective holds true for most carebear pursuits, ruining the basic argument that carebears are somehow valuable to the game for providing resources.
"Even mission runners who run L4s with friends are creating stories - they are grouping together, trading fits, running missions and having a good time. Again its a personal story and doesn't ripple through the game as much as a massive pvp battle but its still just as important as its the social interaction that gives players the desire to keep playing the game."
No, it's not just as important. Importance of story is measured by how many people care about it, and how much. You admit that this story falls short by both measures, but then irrationally claim it's still important. Carebears like to claim that all stories are equal, without any rationale for such a broad and unlikely claim. (The story of gankers never falls under this equality, also, also without rationale).
"By your logical I should have left the game years ago because I fit into your carebear model; but I still have a lot of love for the game because of the interaction with the community, the meta game, the theorycrafting, the news, the politics & my friends in game. "
I.e., the community provides content for you, but you're not providing meaningful content back in a proportional manner. This is not an equal relationship. Which is fine, there's no need for everyone to be equal. The problem is when game companies fail to realize that not all players are equal when viewed as content-generators--which is why we're seeing a movement to marginalize CSM candidates who don't understand this distinction.
"Or, alternately, you could describe the same situation by saying that zombie mission-running carebears run so many missions that salvaging wrecks isn't even worth it"
DeleteThats the nature of EVE and the player economy. Any good EVE player would understand, encourage and profit by this by either setting up cheap buy orders for salvage from those 'zombie' mission runners or simply having cheaper rigs so that your ship can perform better - either way its a net win.
"No, it's not just as important. Importance of story is measured by how many people care about it, and how much."
Wait.. are you saying that there is some sort of board in EVE where I have to submit my game experiance to them to have it judged and for them to decide if its worthy for me to say that I had a good time!!??
I'm sorry but the nature of the sandbox means that the only things that are important are my own personal goals and experiances - I really don't care what the rest of the EVE universe thinks of me; so as far as I am concerned running my first L4, running a logi ship with some mates on a L4 or getting my first PvP kill with Alekseyev Karrde are just as fun and important to my own EVE time than any sort of PvP blap / blob / gank - regardless of how many other people know about it or think its important as its those types of experiances that encourage me to play this game more and encourage other people to play.
"I.e., the community provides content for you, but you're not providing meaningful content back in a proportional manner."
Again how am I supposed to be judged in this? Is there some sort of metric that decides if I am contributing back in equal amount? I enjoy reading quite a lot of EVE blogs and comment quite a lot on most of them. I've even had Jester use my contribution as 'Comment of the week' a few times.
To me the simple participation in a conversation like this and many others is sufficiant - I don't have my own blog because I don't have the time or anything I would think people would be interested in reading.
"The problem is when game companies fail to realize that not all players are equal"
So do you pay more for your EVE account than me? Do you have some sort of special VIP subscription that means your more important than I am? No - we all pay the same and are entitled to equal representation (even if it doesn't happen). CCP will obviously use statistics to see which game play styles are popular in order to see where they can improve or encourage more people to play, but that is one of the reasons why the CSM was formed - to act as the players voice and to help CCP create a better game based on the feedback of the player elected representatives.
All this fear over a perception that EVE is going to be turned into a themepark game - after all its been through do you think that CCP would really want to comit comercial suicide? Do you think the players or the CSM would let them!? So why continue to build this strawman and flog it to death over and over? Why so much fear of the PvE play style that you feel it needs to be removed or heavily reduced to the point of being useless?
I would agree with you to an extent, except for when you break this down into consensual / non-consensual, sandbox / anti-sandbox, your discussion becomes so binary and limited in scope that it risks turning your whole argument into a strawman. I know that the temptation exists to present the case in its simplest form to prove a point, but I think it actually ends up undermining the cause you're fighting for because so many people will dismiss this as overblown carebear hysteria.
ReplyDeleteTake for instance subscriber numbers - while you are correct in pointing out that "EVE is not dying", its most certainly a hot topic of debate as to whether or not we're actually GROWING (in any kind of meaningful, game-changing way). Take CCP's recent trumpeting of "500,000" and the players immediately (and rightfully!) pointing out that lumping in Serenity numbers obscures what is actually going on in terms of growth.
There is absolutely room for debate as to whether EVE's sandbox is TOO unlimited (in particular areas of the game) and that this contributes to the learning cliff keeping those trying out the game from getting hooked. How many players that might embrace EVE's "danger everywhere" nature are still saying "fuck this" after being ganked one too many times before they even get their bearings on how to prevent such a thing? That's a valid and far more nuanced set of questions to investigate, one that you yourself have explored through proposing changes to the way that new players are trained. In fact, your proposal even included the use of instancing and arbitrary skillpoint caps which many players find as blasphemous, broken, and anti-sandbox as anything that would affect the ability to pull the trigger on another player.
So by all means, let’s engage the community, the CSM, and CCP alike in exploring these questions. But let’s do so with some intellectual gusto, and endeavor to avoid hyperbole and of making caricatures out of other players investigating the very same problems you have. It’s too important an issue to let it fall prey to finger-pointing and overgeneralization.
And I still think that newbies should be given some sort of area where they can learn how to function in all areas of the game with players of similar skill points. A newbie area should contain highsec, lowsec, nullsec and wormhole space.
Delete" How many players that might embrace EVE's "danger everywhere" nature are still saying "fuck this" after being ganked one too many times before they even get their bearings on how to prevent such a thing? That's a valid and far more nuanced set of questions to investigate, one that you yourself have explored through proposing changes to the way that new players are trained."
DeleteAsking only that set of questions, without also asking the questions in the area of "How many players that would play EVE if it were as harsh and cold as advertised, are instead playing LOL or COD?", is an approach so "limited in scope that it risks turning your whole argument into a strawman.", to put it in your own words. I find it hard to understand why you would spend 4 paragraphs hurling insults like "caricature", "hyperbole", "strawman", "simplest form", when your argument is actually much simpler and shorter than Poetic's--and filled with much more crude and insulting rhetoric. Perhaps you are trolling?
The point I was trying to make was essentially "it's not that simple." You're right, we can also ask ourselves if more people would play EVE if it were colder and harsher.* If I meant to say that those were the ONLY questions to ask, I would have explicitly said so.
DeleteLikewise if I had really wanted to insult Poetic, I'd just call him an angry little man with lady issues and a fetish for nerd strife who ironically enjoys that fact that the internet is the one place you be a senseless douche half the time while enjoying a completely safety bubble from consequence through anonymity. But that's easy enough to say without the mess of disguising it all in a discussion of game mechanics! ;) I'm too lazy for those kind of shenanigans.
Perhaps english isn't your first language, and that's totally fine if there's a misunderstanding here. But "caricature", "hyperbole", "strawman" and "simplest form" are not insults unless used in a specific context. If you read closely you'll notice that I said that Poetic -risked- throwing up a straw man by flirting with the extremes, not that he actually did. I also cautioned against it because his underlying message is one that players SHOULD be thinking about and not discarding because of who its coming from or how it's being presented.
Free-thinking mature adults can debate and dialogue without resorting to insult, there's just no reason for you, Poetic, or anyone else to take every alternative opinion as a personal attack. My post was no troll.
*In fact we need to ask even more questions than that: Where should we go to find these numbers? What discrepancy do you see between the way that EVE is advertised and the way the game actually plays out (specifically in terms of risk level, since that's the issue on the table)? What would you like to do that EVE won't let you?
"I'm too lazy for those kind of shenanigans."
DeleteApparently not.
"Free-thinking mature adults can debate and dialogue without resorting to insult,..."
Yes--so why don't you?
At least you have shown your true colors here.
CCP already discussed in the minutes that carebears essentially do make up the bulk of their playerbase, clearly they have been tracking it over time and wouldnt be debating these thing unless they already have the beginnings of a business case for re-evaluating high sec safety. Theyve also been firm on EVE not compromising its danger-everywhere policy, so I'm not sure why you think theys ever go to that extreme in lieu of a more reasonible and modest set of adjustments instead. If you really DO think CCP is turning into blizzard, its because you fear that there numbers dont match your suggestion that the hardcore PVP types constitute those the bulk of those paying for subs.
ReplyDeleteI take it you also believe that gay marriag will leas to polygamy, incest, and interspecies marriages? enough with the slippery slope bullshit Poe.
ReplyDeleteI am a now more than 2 year old player who does almost exclusively PVE (with the exception of a wardec or two).
ReplyDeleteI would not agree that I am asocial: I chat with my corp-mates and we do mining-OPs and missions together.
However, I have usually about one, max two hour blocks of playing time - and too few (work, family etc) of these.
I simply cannot be bothered with the hassle that low sec logostics and supply would be; to say nothing of Nullsec with its CTAs and still more difficult logistics (and the fact that a - for me - ordinary two week business trip could see sov changed and my assets gone)
Yes, Eve PVE is bad, yes it can be repetitive. But I still like the aesthetics of the game and can enjoy them while shooting red crosses (or *gasp* zoom in and see some actual explosions) or mining.
Eve simply has the for me best "space" feeling currently available. That is keeping my two casual subscriptions alive.
Would a bit more risk lose my subscription? Probably not - I was fine before mining barge buffs and the new crimewatch.
However, dumbing down the PVE opportunities in high sec might. I still want to have the option of something "non-noobish", mildly entertaining to do.
lol Poe how long will you persist in beating your head on the brick wall? Whensoever will you understand that the brick wall doesn't care, your head is nowhere near as hard, and in the end all you'll have is a caved-in skull and a brick wall with some flesh, bone bits, and gray matter on it? Eventually, some janitor will come along and clean that up, and you'll be left with a nice, clean, pristine brick wall, awaiting its next victim.
ReplyDeleteDon't be "that guy". ;-)
I'm bad at tl'drs. Other people are better at it. Here's a good one from Reddit:
ReplyDeleteTL DR -> Players that treat EVE like a single player space RPG are a waste of Dev resources for the following reasons:
- They will quickly grow bored and leave
- They generate no content for their fellow players
- They petition CCP to protect their play style to the detriment of the community
I agree.
"TL DR -> Players that treat EVE like a single player space RPG are a waste of Dev resources for the following reasons:
Delete- They will quickly grow bored and leave
- They generate no content for their fellow players
- They petition CCP to protect their play style to the detriment of the community"
Hmmm. Let's walk this back a little.
How do you know that players who treat EVE like a single player space RPG will quickly grow bored and leave? Are there numbers to back this up? If so, how do you identify players who treat EVE like a single player space RPG in your data sample?
What constitutes generating content for one's fellow players? Is content only generated when one blows up one's fellow players or is blown up by them? Do players who merely buy and sell in the markets providde content, albeit at a low level. And when did someone paying CCP a subscription fee become obligated to generate content for their fellow players anyway? 'Cause,I swear, I can't find that one in the EULA.
How do you know that players who treat EVE like a single player space RPG (assuming we can clearly identify such players) uniformly lobby CCP to protect their style of play? I'm sure some players who treat EVE like a single player space RPG regard other players as part of the single player space RPG universe (an unpredictable and dangerous part, but a part nonetheless) and just play their game without undo fuss or bother.
And even if every player who treats EVE like a single player space RPG lobbies CCP and the CSM to protect their style of play, who are you to say they should not? You constantly lobby CCP and the CSM to protect your style of play, so why shouldn't they?
In fact, you likely spend more time demagoging on the 'right' and 'wrong' way to play Eve more than all the players who treat EVE like a single player space RPG put together (assuming you could identify them). Stones and glass houses, Stanz. Stones and glass houses.
I would venture that there are any number of players who treat EVE like a single player space RPG who've been happily and quietly at the game for some years. Lacking the data to make that case I won't attempt to prove the point. However, your reddit friend lacks data as well and you seem pleased to take his statements at face value.
Which is the usual case when someone is telling you a thing you want to believe.
"How do you know that players who treat EVE like a single player space RPG will quickly grow bored and leave? "
DeletePersonal anecdotes, CCP's statements that joining a player corporation is the best predictor of pilot longevity in EVE.
"Are there numbers to back this up?"
Yes.
"If so, how do you identify players who treat EVE like a single player space RPG in your data sample? "
Since I don't work for CCP, it's not "my" data sample. If I did work for CCP, that would be a very interesting topic of study. There are things one can do solo, and things that require groups. One could analyze retention rates for people, looking at time spent in fleets in low, vs. fleets in high, mining vs. missioning vs. incursions vs. sites in low/null/WHs. There's an absolute ton of analysis that could be done, but without access to the database, most of it isn't possible.
"
In fact, you likely spend more time demagoging on the 'right' and 'wrong' way to play Eve more than all the players who treat EVE like a single player space RPG put together "
Nope, if you spent more time in highsec icefields you'd see that this was false as well.
"I would venture that there are any number of players who treat EVE like a single player space RPG who've been happily and quietly at the game for some years."
As long as 'any number' means 'some number around a few thousand', then I totally agree with you. If it means thirty-eight million, then I don't.
"And even if every player who treats EVE like a single player space RPG lobbies CCP and the CSM to protect their style of play, who are you to say they should not? You constantly lobby CCP and the CSM to protect your style of play, so why shouldn't they? "
No one said they shouldn't. Poetic didn't say that they shouldn't do so, but that for Devs to heed their cries would be detrimental to the bottom line of CCP, because their demands are harmful to the community. Please reread the TL;DR, and you will see this is so.
That small subset seems to have an effect on CCP and the CSM, who are now making waves about their being PvP-free zones in EVE. See anything written by Trebor in the last two months as an example.
Delete- They will quickly grow bored and leave
Delete- They generate no content for their fellow players
- They petition CCP to protect their play style to the detriment of the community
(1) Then there is no issue as "They will quickly grow bored and leave";
(2) Then there is no issue as "They will quickly grow bored and leave";
(3) Then there is no issue because if "They will quickly grow bored and leave" then they won't petition CCP to protect their play style to the detriment of YOUR playstyle as you see it.
The std. PvPbear logic is again amazing, complex, self-contradictory and idiotic... as always.
Rammstein:
Delete""Are there numbers to back this up?"
Yes."
Ok... where are they?
Poetic Stanziel:
"That small subset seems to have an effect on CCP and the CSM, who are now making waves about their being PvP-free zones in EVE. See anything written by Trebor in the last two months as an example."
Again any specific examples where Trebor says "I want a PvP safe zone" because I can't find any. If anything the ONLY thing close to this that Trebor says (digging around the CSM mins) is that he would like to see protection for newer players in WAR DECS. This is simply because new players in young corps will often quit EVE when they are ganked via War Decs with no hope or chance of retaliation.
At a fundemental level more players = Good for everyone.
More players = more targets
More players = more allies
More players = better
More players = more money for CCP
More money for CCP = more content
Regardless of what you may think about ganking helpness noobs during a wardec the fact that if large numbers of potential good and long standing players are being put off because of a game mechanic then something has to change.
Even if he DID say something like that don't you think the other CSM's would have put him in his place? Don't you think that his THREE terms in the CSM is proof enough that he isn't out the kill EVE?
If he really wanted EVE to be PvP free then wouldn't he have mentioned it sooner? Why would he even be in a merc PvP corp if he believes that EVE should be a themepark and "PvP is bad mmkay"?
EVE only sucks for solo and PVE play because the devs have taken the game that way over the years. In the early years, a much larger percentage of the player base *was* mostly doing PVE and solo PVP.
ReplyDeleteYou talk about the "sandbox" a lot, Poe. But, you need to realize that many folks just want to go off in a corner and do their own thing, without being bothered by anyone else. You can't force everyone to be "social". And, if these people are currently a minority in EVE, that is only because the changes to the game have been slowly pushing them out, and on to other games.
This isn't good for EVE, nor CCP. CCP needs more subscribers, not less. The game will only flourish if you encourage *all* forms of game play in the sandbox. So, if many someones want to pay a sub fee to go off into a 100% safe part of EVE and do their own thing, fine by me. More sub money means more devs, which means more content development, which means a better game for all.
And they can play the game in their anti-social way, as long as they accept that they can stop other players from interacting with them.
DeleteContent development?!?!?!?! Jesus.... goddamn themeparkers will only rest when theirs a system called Goldshire.
Delete"Content development" does not just mean theme parks.
DeleteMore money from more subs means more developers for fixing other resource-intensive issues, like POSes. Just FYI, POSes are content, too.
"Solo" and "PvE" together may be a bad combination. But dedicated "Solo" or "PvE" are both viable options, looked at separately. I am a solo player, not having a current RL situation that is conducive to using comms, but I regularly interact with others via hunting and killing them, or by avoiding them as I run exploration sites to fund my alt's account and my PvP losses. Likewise, I am sure there are many dedicated PvE players who will never hunt and kill anyone but are perfectly happy to go about their industrial or missioning EVE ways with their corpmates.
ReplyDeleteOnly point being that the title of the OP is maybe misleading. Both "Solo" and "PvE" are sustainable, just not in concert.
There are a few variations missing from your analysis:
ReplyDelete1) the PVPers who want missions to be boring and repetitive, because then they can send in an alt or two in RR sentry Dominixes and make steady, reliable ISK while their main fleets up in a Zealot in null sec (ditto for AFK mining--not every one of them is watching Netflix);
2) the "alone in a crowd" types who enjoy the more urban feel of the high sec hubs. They enjoy having people around, they don't mind limited interactions and transactions involving other people, but they're not intrinsically social;
3) the loners who do exploration PVE and bring back all those shiny mods and BPCs for the rest of us to use.
As to Rammstein's comment that "the community is providing content for you, but you aren't providing content in a proportional manner," you could say that about any FC relative to the semi-AFK Drake pilots in fleet, any corp director or alliance executor relative to ordinary corp members, etc., etc. This will not change. What may change is the way, to use CCP Seagull's phrase that "[EVE] treats [enablers] like... shit."
For Anonymous, there are still L4s that recommend that you "bring friends:" Buzz Kill and Duo of Death spring to mind. I wouldn't mind more. I also wouldn't mind a significant buff to EVE PVE.
"As to Rammstein's comment that "the community is providing content for you, but you aren't providing content in a proportional manner," you could say that about any FC relative to the semi-AFK Drake pilots in fleet, any corp director or alliance executor relative to ordinary corp members, etc., etc. This will not change. What may change is the way, to use CCP Seagull's phrase that "[EVE] treats [enablers] like... shit.""
DeleteOne COULD say that about any FC relative to the semi-AFK Drake pilots etc...and everyone HAS said it, thousands of times. There will indeed always be a gradation. This doesn't mean that the arrangement and scale of that gradation isn't important, or that we shouldn't try to make the rewards along that gradation proportional. that's naive fatalism.
I see you've switched from ranting about EVE-U to ranting about solo players. Who are you speaking about? Where are these whiney posts you're talking about? Which actions specifically has CCP taken that you think are caving to anti-social players?
ReplyDeleteGet off your soap box already.
I fully agree with you on this issue - deep level of interaction between players is what sets EVE apart from all the other MMOs. It's the reason I started playing it in the first place and why I plan to continue for years to come.
ReplyDeleteWhen I go out and fly through all those systems, I know that behind all those ships I come across are living people: that I could talk to them, steal from them or even kill them..just like they could me - no consensus needed.
I am a carebear. Most of my time in EVE I spend shooting red crosses or probing around, looking for riches. In the past, war decs have made it nearly impossible to continue to operate like I used to. But I learned - I adapted and I survived. I survived and prospered where many have given up and fallen. That very fact tells me I've achieved something here. I know of no other MMO that can give you that thrill!
Do war decs bother me? Hell yeah! But should they be outright removed? Absolutely not!!
Most of us carebears are stuck in high sec because risk/reward is out of balance across the world of EVE. My goal is to move my small corp to null, and get sov set up somewhere. But, in order to even begin that, I need lots and lots of ISK, assets and players experienced in different fields. With current game dynamics and geo-political situation in null, that is only possible in high sec.
I've read many articles recently asking for buffing null/low and nerfing high sec income sources. Some have even gone as far as to call for a sledge hammer of high sec - removing every single high-end income source (most famously Goblin and James_315). In my opinion, this is a bad idea.
What CCP should do instead is lower the entry point for small-time PVE corps getting access to null sec, without becoming somebody's pets. Give us reason to leave the [false] safety of high sec and seek riches in null, and we will gladly follow.
P.S: This pic perfectly sums up all that's good about EVE :)
http://eve-kill.net/banner/two_kinds_of_eve_players.jpg
I solo 80% of the time....partly cuz I don't want to sit at my computer for an hour waiting for everyone else to be ready to roam around...then roam for an hour with a big group with nothing to shoot cuz everyone runs. This doesn't mean I'm not social. I'm usually on coms with people chatting. I've also helped along many players teaching them new fits and PVP techniques....I enjoy that. Conversely, I like having the ability to get into a ship and only have an hour to play and getting fights 5-10 mins after I undock. This just isn't possible if you are only in fleets.
ReplyDeleteOn the other side of it...after recently making a new character to see what the new player expirience is like....I do think that the new player systems should be pvp free....so many just sit in there killing noobs that just don't understand the game yet and turn them off from they game before they even get going.
That said....the sandbox style is great....if someone isn't having fun they need to think about why that is and change there approach to how they do things....solo isn't dead....you can actually make much more isk soloing than with a fleet from pvp, especially in FW. Solo PVP alone can easily get you 1mil LP and a bill isk in drops. In the end its all about how you approach it.
- Dagren Darius
Some folks are going to solo regardless of other folks wanting them in thier crosshairs or being a grunt in thier corp. It is just how some people play MMOs. Not saying we should cave into those who want instanced everything for that would be blasphemous to everything Eve.
ReplyDeleteBUT - there is a point for a total revemp of PvE and missions. I think the missions would be much better with a rougelike extreme random element and have an effect on the environment. One of the problems with PvE in all games is it is a static environment where you look up on some site exactly what you need to do and exactly what you need to bring that takes the mystery out and makes it into a forgone conclusion. Most MMOs including Eve, the missions do not seem to affect the environment either. You can kill 100s of bad guys, but the another capsuleer can do the same mission a hundred times, too. Kind of like in Warcraft you kill the same end boss multiple times yet the dungeon is always there forever.
Also, an AI/ behavior that mimics PvP. There should be no "PvE" builds or "PvE" builds. In all MMOs, Eve included, it is kind of unrealistic. What makes a rat's ship have to be any different than a capsuleeer's ship?
I have a feeling that the Eve devs may be looking at exactly something like that already and we shall see it one day.
Combat PvE seriously needs some work, it's too predictable for a start, even with the upgraded NPC AI. I often run level 4's for extra iskies, more often than not I'll be running them in a BC with just enough tank to survive, but not enough that I can sit still and soak up the damage, inefficient but far more entertaining than doing them in a BS, because I actually have to fly the bloody thing to succeed.
DeleteI play mostly solo when I'm doing PvE, although I'm often on comms with old corpies, joking and chatting with people in special interest groups or just chatting in local when there's actually anyone else chatting(on that note how can 200 people be in a solar system but local is dead? are they all afk?)
Many people would class me as a carebear, purely because I don't actively seek PvP. What I am not, however, is one of the carebears that demand CCP change the game to suit them. If highsec ever becomes a PvP free enclave I'll be amongst the first out of the door, I choose to play there because it suits the way I want to play, but I also appreciate the fact that I can and will explode at somebody else's whim, in fact it's what keeps me playing Eve.
I've tried other areas of Eve, I've lived in various wormholes, I've exploded in lowsec and nullsec, all enjoyable and good fun, and definitely something I'll do again, but for the moment highsec is my home, I don't want to see it become the antithesis of what Eve is.
Poetic,
ReplyDeleteYour narrative is closed-minded and there is many deceitful conclusions in your post.
For starters, I'll bet you that there is not that much more '5+ years in a row' players in EVE than there is 'anti-sandbox' players.
CCP subscription pattern must be a just as wide-spectrum as the players that it reflects: returning players, players going on a break, players that love the game for some months, play it in boredom for a year, take off than get back to loving it. In fact, you'd be hard-pressed to find a player that fits any of these descriptions completely or for any significant length of time. Every players is a mix of many types and that evolves over time in many direction. One player could be hyper-harcore for a week, then feel a bit more 'anti-sandboxy' for a few days and so on.
You have no evidence that players like yourself are any closer to be representative than the players you have a beef with in terms of sheer subscription weight.
Secondly, if EVE Online is still live and kicking, it's because it's an evolving deep product with a lot of features to please a wide range of type of players. Some features are enjoyed by the PvPers, some by the Industrialists, and yes, some by the 'anti-sandbox' players too.
This has nothing to do with 'working hard to please a specific subset of the subscribers', regardless of how big a percentage you may think they represent (which they probably don't).
Thirdly, you're assessment of where the game is boring or not is entirely based on your own limited perspective. For instance, running missions like 'Damsel in distress' might look inescapably tedious and repetitive for someone that had 20+ hours a week of playing time. But it might not for someone that has, lets say, 6 hours or less.
In fact, that might be exactly what that players needs since other stuff requires more involvement hence more time; time not available to that player.
Next, your statement that 'anti-sandbox' players brings nothing to the game is wrong almost by definition. In fact, the way you phrased it, it's short-sighted to the point of idiocy.
Since they are players, they bring their subscription money, like everyone else. That money is put to good use by CCP just like yours is and you don't deserve any more accolade than they do on that point. That point happens to be how CCP sustain the game in the real world.
Furthermore, that money gives them just as much license to be a prick and complain as it gives you. Nobody enjoys a whiners but there's whiners in every subset of every game and they are spread roughly equally across the whole base. 'Anti-sandbox' players don't have the monopoly on that. Far from it.
In fact, it could be argued that since they complain mostly about the game instead of other players, they actually bring more to the table than this post.
It's pretty easy to see that if any player were to have his way and get CCP to re-design the game along his/her own personal tastes, it would destroy the game instantly for almost everybody else.
It should be just as easy to see that CCP needs input (complaints) from every part of the spectrum to get the inspiration they need to keep adding interesting features to the game.
But your post missed that completely.
In fact, the whole thing seems more like a baby-ish cry of 'I love this game so much and play it so hard, please don't let other players' tastes get in the way of that. Give ME all the stuff I enjoy and don't listen to THEM!'.
Not your finest hour.