Thursday, March 7, 2013

Wardecs Be Broken

Back when Inferno and the new wardec system was released, I was happy to see the end of decshielding. I was happy to see that many alliances and corporations would, once again, be part of the game. The reward was always theirs, now to risk too.

I stated at the time that a good measuring stick for the success of the new system would be EVE University. That there was some happy medium between zero wars and permanent war that would denote the success of the system. I wrote, back on May 15 2012, that:
It's my thinking that a 2000 member entity should spend approximately 16-20 weeks per year under non-mutual war declaration.
That has not been the case. Since Inferno, EVE University has been under a permanent state of war declaration. That's been good for them in a few ways: Forcing them to turn hard rules into guidelines; allowing their members more freedom to do what they want; teaching their members to operate in potentially hostile environments.

It's probably time, though, to find that equilibrium. No highsec group deserves to be under a constant state of hostility. It is highsec, after all. There's supposed to be a certain level of safety inherent in operating out of the high security theatre.

I'm not sure exactly how to find that equilibrium. But it's probably something we should talk about. Seriously. Before the Terrible Trebors of this game convince CCP to remove it altogether. We should start thinking about how to keep a non-consensual war declaration system in place, while not allowing it to completely strangle the operations of folks who choose to live in highsec.

I'll throw out a couple ideas, to get the party started, but bear in mind that they're only ideas, a starting point for further discussion.

Flat out disallow war declarations between groups with large size differentials. A group cannot declare war on another if it is less than half its size or more than four times its size. So, for example, an 80-man corporation cannot declare on a 39-man corporation or a 321-man corporation (though a 40-man and a 320-man would be fine.) The theory, here, being that similarly-sized corps and alliances are likely more apt to engage each other. Of course, PvP shouldn't be the only metric for declaring war, but it should be a driving factor in most wars.

Allow defending corps and alliances to bribe CONCORD to end a war. The cost of this bribe should be a sliding scale week to week. In the first week of a war, it should be very expensive (perhaps on the order of ten times what the war cost the aggressor.) In the second week that bribe amount falls drastically (perhaps to an amount twice the cost that the aggressor originally paid.) In the third week the cost falls further (an equal amount, maybe.) In the fourth week it costs less than what the aggressor paid. And so forth. Once the bribe is paid, the defender is free of wardecs from that aggressor for a month.

If a war is not renewed week to week, then the aggressor forfeits any opportunity to re-wardec that defender for a month. (To eliminate gaming the system, where defender bribe costs are concerned.)

I don't know the exact solution, but perhaps these few ideas are a place to begin the discussion. And yes, every system can be gamed. But some mechanics can be applied to put the kibosh on some of the more obvious and aggregious gaming.

Your thoughts, as always, are good reading.

(Edit: See the follow-up post, Wardecs as Bounties, Sorta, for more on this topic.)

31 comments:

  1. Poetic Stanziel: Carebear When He Wants To Be.

    How exactly does this not represent the exact sort of accommodational nonsense that you typically rail against? You pick on others all the time for taking into account the carebears, and making the game a safer place for them. Those people, you imagine, are worrying too much about CCP's subscription numbers and not enough about the game. What's wrong with EVE University being under constant wardec? Are you afraid they'll quit the game if it doesn't let up? If so, doesn't that put you in the same league with the people you piss on for doing just that?

    I wonder what The Great James315 would say about this post.

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    1. Nope. Not worried about them quitting the game. They have a good strong social fabric that lets them get through their tough times.

      Unlike Trebor, I'm not suggesting the retirement of non-consensual wardecs in favour of consensual only.

      The wardec system is still pretty broke. It didn't accomplish what CCP hoped it would. It still requires some tweaking. Better to tweak than to trash it altogether.

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    2. But you're suggesting tweaks that ultimately push in the direction of consensual play. What you're suggesting is, in other words, an admission that wardecs can be taken "too far," and that some artificial mechanic should be put in place which protects, i.e. makes safer, those corporations which generally do not care to face wardecs.

      You've used the "boiling frog" metaphor in the past. How, by your reasoning, would this not be a case of an iteration which pushes the game, little by little, into a consensual play model?

      I should make it clear, if it isn't already, that I'm not actually saying that one leads to the other. In spirit, I agree with what you're suggesting in your post. I'm just taking issue with what I see as inconsistencies in your "worldview" concerning EVE. Because this seems like the exact sort of thing you would ordinarily be railing against. And certainly, if it came out of Trebor's keyboard, I have to believe, based on things you've said about him before, that you would be wailing quite prominently about it. This would be Trebor's great frog-boiling maneuver to take the game toward consensual PVP.

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    3. I don't want consensual play ... but it does make highsec a tad safer, for sure.

      But if Terrible People like Trebor are to be believed, then the wardec system may be on its way out the door.

      I'd rather have a muted version of what the wardec system is today, than not existing at all.

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    4. And these changes are still far far better than the wardec system of 2010/2011, when CCP allowed decshielding to occur.

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    5. It's one thing to wardec another competing corp with something to gain, but trolldecing just for the sake of being a thorn is kind of pointless. EVE-U is a harbor for noobs, and a good source of new players that keep the game alive. Just seems silly for people to destroy it because it's there to destroy.

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    6. @Anon 3:30 - I actually have a little problem with the premise of the piece (using the fact that EVE-U has been under constant wardec as a reason to complain about wardecs in general) because EVE-U has actually courted/consented to some of those wardecs itself as a way to give its members a taste of PvP and warfare. I honestly don't think EVE-U even really has a problem with being under constant wardec. It caused them to adopt some pretty strict rules in the past, but it never really seemed to bother them. And now that those rules have been softened, I think it bothers them even less.

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    7. I thought the same too, concerning E-Uni and wardecs ... but I've seen a few comments on their website, and from Kelduum, that would suggest they're greatly annoyed and put-out by the constant wardecs.

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    8. "I wonder what The Great James315 would say about this post." LOL !!!
      Isn't it your great james who evades war decs in simply disbanding his corp and reforming it?

      If that guy stands for good game play, something is seriously wrong

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    9. The mistake is seeing Eve Uni as some benevolent neutral entity. The M.O. of their leadership hasn't changed since the first time I came across them back in 2006. They've used the new memberbase as a meatshield, a personal army and a political tool, playing the 'we're just noobies, you're scrubs if you dec us' while at the same time sticking their nose into other people's business eg. taking in war dec'd corps or breaking deals because you don't have to keep your word with non-consensual pvpers.
      The fact is; their leadership has always been against non-consensual PvP. They use the premise that they are helping keep people subscribed to Eve as a way to push their agenda. Admittedly a lot of the decs they receive are by people looking for easy kills but of course these people are normally terrible and don't do very well. However, many of the recent longer decs have come from them thinking they can go about doing what they want, messing with who they want then avoid any consequences by playing their 'newbie card.'

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  2. There is nothing GREAT about James 315.

    Secondly, If the current wardec system just lets folks wardec people all the time, what is the point. Shouldn't it be a system that means something and carries some weight, not just a tool for those that wish to grief corporations and alliances, which it still is.

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    1. @Valiant: I was being facetious. I don't think James315 is great. I think he's a moron. I actually agree that we need to tweak the wardec system further. I just feel like Poetic is trying to have his cake and eat it too on issues like this. If the same words were uttered by Trebor, this would be deemed part of a great plan to neuter PVP and make fights 100% consensual in EVE.

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    2. Most probably, you're right. If Trebor had suggested this, I would have come down on him. It would have depended on how he couched it.

      But Trebor did not suggest this ... rather he's been suggesting that maybe the wardec mechanics should be removed altogether, because they might be affecting CCP's bottom line. And he seems to want to get on the CSM to continue to push CCP's bottom line in favour of game issues.

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  3. The problem with the size rule is that it can be so easily game-ed and it provides incentives for people to play those games which just creates more organizational hassles.

    I'm in a fairly straight forward industrial oriented corp, I started playing eve because I like its complex economy compared to all the other MMOs out there. That's not to say that we don't like to also PvP and when we ge war dec-ed we bring out the guns to fight. The problem is that pretty much all the people who war dec us don't do it because they want to fight, they just want risk free industrial kills. So when we bring out our ships to fight they just dock up, wait till we're gone then come back when they can look to gank industrials. Yes, war decs are broken when is the aggressed that's that only one that wants to actually fight!

    Really the basic problem with war decs is not very different than the basic problem with sov war, there's little incentive to put isk on the field.

    What if instead of paying into concord, the price of the war dec along with a rather sizable deposit (depending on the size of the war dec target) was put out in some sort of structure in space that the war dec target could engage in some way. Every time the war dec target successfully engages this structure they take a chunk out of that deposit to keep for themselves therefore giving the war dec agressor incentive to put isk on the field (to stop losing their deposit) and interact instead of only undocking when they overwhelm.

    This isn't all that different than the bounty system and it tries to solve the situation by giving both sides of the war dec an incentive to get out there and engage. The war-dec target wants to go out to try and get isk from that structure and the war-dec aggressor wants to keep ships out there to defend that structure and actually fight when there's ships to fight.

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  4. Shield Corp.

    Defending corp pays/hires another corp to serve as their shield against potential aggressors.

    Shield corp must receive payment equal to or above what the war-deccing party spend, must have active members equal to 20% of the defending corp.

    I'd like to see something like this, as it would actively promote the idea of non-aggressive entities hiring out their conflicts to specialists.

    Just a rough idea, needs tweaking to avoid the most blatant abuse, but there...

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  5. It sounds a little like you're looking for a game mechanic change specifically to protect Eve Uni.

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    1. You don't think 10 or 20-man corps might see some benefit?

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  6. Instead of a flat out ban on corporations of differing sizes deccing each other, how about adjusting costs?

    Take the ordinary cost of the wardec as calculated by the current formula and scale it again by multiplying with the ratio (larger/smaller)... probably capped somewhere (factor 10 max, maybe lower).

    Another way to do it might even include a RP/lore reason. A small entity must pay Concord for the disruption of a large, lawful entity in Empire. A big entity (deccing a smaller) has to pay a compensary fee (that might be even payed directly to the wardecced party - though there are a few caveats with that as well)

    TBH, i have no idea how to do this properly. Just spitballing.

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  7. So you're letting greyscale guestblog, hmm.

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    1. Don't judge ... until you've read my CONCORD post.

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  8. I'd like to know what you do about the 1-10 man corp who war decs you...hell you're ready, your security team researches the bandits list are made you have locations on most of them, watch lists are populated, you pass out the guns, you coach your nublings in fleet maneuvers, you open up the security vault and blow the dust off all the ships the corp has waiting for the clarion call...zero hour comes...and you never see a sign of the bandits...nothing...you're a 24 hour corp so if they logged in some one would know...they never appear...so by day 3 your back to normal but watchful operations, think ok now they'll come...but at day 7 they still haven't logged...what was the point..yeah they wasted isk, and they made us change our operations for a few days...but why?

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    1. That's not an issue that needs solving tho.Idiots will be idiots, there's no cure for the ailment.

      The only problem there is that they got your hopes up.

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  9. How about making losing an offensive war more painful, and successfull defending against agressors (or just not losing), more rewarding. Here's an idea, increase the cost of a wardec, ramping up every week the war goes on, but have the extra held in escrow by concord. The "Winner" of the war will recieve the isk from concord at the conclusion of the war, that is, if the aggressor refuses to continue the war, or the defender agrees to a surrender, or their "active" membership has dropped below a certain limit. Once "peace" is declared, concord will prevent the two factions for being at war with each other for a period of time.

    Wars with an objective in mind, such as clearing a POS on a merc contract, will end quickly and have low wardec costs. Wardecs against small alt corps will have low base cost, and if enough members are forced out, will end automatically. Griefdecs that the defender can withstand will cost the aggression greatly over time, and the defenders will be rewarded with ISK for their tenacity.

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  10. Heh. This is the sort of post that would turn my comments thread into a river of flame. How is it you get off so light? ;-)

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    1. a) I'm not running for the CSM.

      b) I'm in favour of non-consensual PvP.

      c) I framed it as a discussion in repsonse to Terrible Trebor's suggestion that getting rid of wardecs altogether would be worth investigating ... because, even though CCP is profitable, it should be even more profitable, at the expense of the game's core ideals.

      d) Wardecs were terrible a year ago, nearly as terrible two and three years ago. My suggestions would still be an improvement over what we had pre-Inferno.

      e) I don't know. Mostly this.

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  11. Someone may have thought of this already and others may have shot it down, but if so I'm not aware so feel free to blast away.

    The wardec problem(s): I believe a possible path to a solution or at least a good tweak would be the consideration of a few different classes/types of corporations or more likely various divisions, enabled with a game mechanic, within corporations.

    Certain circumstances would have to be met (escalation of *actual* fighting perhaps?) for the industrial division (or a purely industrial corporate entity) to become a part of any normal/legal wardec pool of targets, for example. Of course any character in the military division would have no such restrictions in place. And of course don't allow any sort of insta-swapping of divisions to game the system.

    A system could be built that didn't punish folks who wanted to war and defend themselves, and that actually builds upon steps of success ("winning") a war as it is actually being fought, but that couldn't be dragged on for no reason between smaller corporations that didn't actually do any fighting because one side just doesn't have the means.

    Rewards (however small or "vain") could be built in for actually escalating a war, for participating, even if you were on the "losing" side.

    The divisions within a larger corp that were protected in the initial stages could be brought farther into the danger as the military response of one side or the other gains an upper hand. Or if a large industrial corp didn't want a full scale war but did at least perform on some level in the conflict with the chosen goal being to scale back or end hostilities then they could do that, even if they sucked at PVP.
    But if said same very large and mostly industrial corp just tried to ignore the issue, put some kind of penalty in place.

    Put limitations of various kinds in place, so that you can't hide behind just being mostly industrial either. If you are just industrial and small and never engage, well then your corporation has some hard and fast limitations placed upon it. If your corporation has a military division and it actually engages or defends, then those restrictions are removed or rewards are added.

    Expansion, new ideas?

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  12. IMO the core problem of Wardecs is the REASON for wars. all this 3l1t3 pvpers wardecing hole alliances with there 20 man on sheet corps aren't looking for a war but for easy kills. Ganking without concord. They camping the main trade hubs and routes like the default gankers but dock up if there really is resistance. Yes there are exceptions but they don't seem to be that frequent.

    If the main reason to go to war is cheap kills, war decs are too cheap. Ramp up the isk to pay per week combined with a counter bribe to end the war after 4 weeks for at least 1 month. Maybe even protecting corps from any wars after 16 Weeks of perma war (attention could be gamed).

    You get killed by a war target because you haven't seen them (or even got tackled from a neutral third party until they could take over) and they laughing at you how bad you are. If you go counter them they hide up in stations and are never seen for "war".

    Oh it would be cool to get some stats about the isk sink the wardecs are, greatest sink AFAIK are still skill books.

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  13. So Poetic thinks a 2000 man corporation needs CCP to step in and provide hard coded protections against a fearsome corp of 80 members? Have you been drinking the same idiocy inducing koolaid trebor has been on for the last few years?

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  14. This is a circular argument, apparently you know it's broken because it's more than a figure you defined as broken. I don't believe this is the case.

    E-Uni is not a good litmus test, and neither should it be; entities of this size in highsec are rare... in fact, there is only one, E-Uni itself.

    You can't begin to comment on the wardec system until wider-ranging statistics are available, and EVEN THEN you need to question what war alone means (for instance, how many wardecs resulted in the aggressor vastly outnumbered and the 'victim' enjoying some schadenfreude?)

    This argument is a non-starter as presented.

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  15. I too, would like to throw a couple high level ideas around, but let me state two higher order things first:
    1) Wardecs are a long shot from being priority for the game. I'd rather see them stay as they are for years if that means other more broken areas of the game are fixed sooner.
    2) The current wardec system is far better than having none. If, by Hilmar's words, Eve is meant to maximize player interaction, then they do a very poor job on that, but far better than having no wardecs.

    Now that's out of the way, I see two high level problems with wardecs:
    - I think all-or-nothing features are terrible.
    - I think wars, as recognized by the game, should be more emergent.

    About the first one, features that boil down to 'It's either at state X or state Y' (in this case, two entities are either at war or not) oftentimes lead to patches in the game that try to regulate a myriad of exceptions, and then the exceptions of these and so on, which ultimately lead to said features being impossible to balance and overly complicated.

    I prefer features that have a gradient, continuous if possible, but discreet can also work depending on the context.

    About the second problem, I can imagine moving away from the current push-button-have-wardec model to one where the game looks for signs that there's conflict brewing between two entities, consensual or otherwise, and start climbing said gradient, maybe even asymmetrically.

    Just go around, cause some havoc, maybe even bait people into shooting back, be creative. Whatever you accomplish, the game recognizes it in some way. Sure it's a lot more trouble than the current one, and a lot of people would not like it, but it also has a lot more player interaction than the current one, where 90% of time gets nowhere.

    How exactly that could apply to wars is what I'm not going to answer, as I don't have a definite answer. It would need a lot of fine tuning.

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  16. How about this:
    If corp A declares war against corp B, all members in corp A are not allowed to dock until the war is over?

    I think a better solution is that CCP makes player interactions in station possible. So if there is any corp hiding in station during war, it's FPS time.

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